Speaker 1: 0:00

Hey everyone, this is Chris. I'm Ryan From the Uncommon Path podcast. The scripture, Revelation 12 11 says and they have conquered him by the blood of the lamb and by the word of their testimony.

Speaker 2: 0:11

Our hope is that as you listen, you will be encouraged in the Lord. This podcast was created as an avenue to share people's raw and unfiltered journeys with him. We hope this brings breakthrough and intimacy with Jesus through their testimony of what God is doing through their lives. Today we are here with Joel Jackson. I feel like that's a really good voice. Do you agree, Chris Are?

Speaker 1: 0:56

you asking if I like your voice.

Speaker 2: 0:58

Well, yeah, I thought it was the way I said it. It's like the instrumental FM radio slots, how they speak. That was Tabachi from the Fifth Symphony.

Speaker 1: 1:22

I always thought that, delilah, we're obviously going to gonna have to restart, so I'm just commenting now I always thought that delilah's were funny. You're like listening to random radio like 10 years ago at like night war knows what I'm talking about.

Speaker 1: 1:37

And she's just like she just sends these like in vague encouraging vibes out into the airwaves, like just that make almost no sense. It's just like if you're going through a tough time, keep going or just like stuff, like where you're like so ominous, yeah, just like that. People call in and they're like you're the best. That's awesome, that's super funny. You know I'm talking about. Yeah, people will call in and be like this song is my husband and I dance to it in our first dance in high school. You're just like getting a little background information on this random couple.

Speaker 2: 2:25

Oh, gosh anyways, let's just start it over I guess we're gonna start that over. Joel jackson, thanks for being here with us thank you thank you for having me, joel.

Speaker 2: 2:39

You are, uh, I'm I'm a guy that you're so sincere with each conversation and, uh, I love how, how just attentive you are to people's like emotions and, um, how you make people feel really, really known and special. I've seen that more and more as I've gotten to know you. Um, thanks for being here. Uh, truly is a privilege to have you. Um, joel Jackson is the son of Elizabeth Jackson. A plug for her episode. If you have not heard it, it was really good. Funny fact about that episode is I kept laughing for about five minutes and eventually I think Warren had to edit out a lot of my pauses and laughs. Really, yeah, because Elizabeth is very funny but also very intentional and I just could not stop laughing when we sat down.

Speaker 3: 3:46

Very funny person, she's the funniest person she knows Doesn't know anyone funnier Like Michael Scott from the Office. We'll die of laughter at all of her own jokes and we'll just emit it the energy yeah that's right um joel, take us through, like what it was like growing up.

Speaker 2: 4:15

Um, brad and elizabeth, they're awesome people. They love the lord intensely. Um, you love the Lord intensely. Um, what? How was that growing up for you? How? Where was kind of the process where you kind of came to faith and stepped into your own vein of like owning your faith versus, um, just believing God the way they did life with God? But before we get there, I would like to know a little fact about you.

Speaker 3: 4:58

Give us a little known fact that few people know, preferably no one knows. That's a really great question to start out, man. That's a really great question to start out, um man, um, very few people know about me. When I was towards the end of middle school, going into like freshman year of high school, it was my dream to be a video game developer, like really david klingler.

Speaker 3: 5:25

Like I wanted to make video games. I took classes on how to do coding, um, but yeah, not a lot of people know that because not a lot of people have known me that long I also wasn't like very vocal about it, but I was like super, super into video games. I was in middle school that's awesome, awesome.

Speaker 2: 5:45

I did not know that. What, where are you from and how old are you?

Speaker 3: 5:50

I am from Garner, north Carolina, raleigh. Yeah, um, and I'm 20 years old, okay.

Speaker 2: 5:59

Yeah. So what did you grow up in Garner?

Speaker 3: 6:03

I grew up in Garner, okay.

Speaker 2: 6:05

Gotcha, and were you homeschooled?

Speaker 3: 6:08

I was homeschooled um all the way up until eighth grade and then I did a university model private school for two years and then I went back to homeschool for the remainder of my high school.

Speaker 2: 6:21

So what? What was it? What was God to you during homeschooling? And then, like, when you started going into, um, like stepping out into what school actually is, like what, how was there a lot of, was there a lot of transition for you? Was it difficult for you spiritually? Was it difficult for you relationally with people? What was that like?

Speaker 3: 6:52

Well, yeah, I mean when I was at home and just living under kind of the shadow of my parents and my family's spiritual covering and love for the Lord.

Speaker 3: 7:06

Example like moving on from that was probably when I started getting into like late elementary school and getting into like taking classes that, like my mom couldn't teach me through like homeschool groups, and starting to like meet some other people that maybe you know they're in homeschool Christian groups but don't necessarily have the modeling that I had, and so figuring out like making my faith personal to me and it not just to be like a habit or something that I just learned and it actually becoming like a personal relationship in my life, like I first I really had to face like the world and like what the world said and, um, I think that really came through like meeting other people who maybe lived a little bit differently, maybe maybe had a different upbringing, maybe didn't have fortunate parents, didn't live in an amazing home, maybe had a divorce, rocky marriage in their parents, stuff like that, and so a lot of the transition was going through that time and then going into like private school, which the specific private school I went to it was, um, it was supposed to be like for leadership and that was kind of like what they wanted to impart on us.

Speaker 3: 8:39

But a lot of the people that got sent there were people that were like kicked out of public school, um, or like high performing, like scholarly kids, but not all of them were following jesus, even though like that was kind of like what the school was all about trying to teach you, and so I really think that it was like freshman year of high school. Sophomore year was like the big turning point, because a lot of the people that I spent all day with were like maybe not believers, maybe like knew a little bit about jesus turning point.

Speaker 1: 9:15

In what way?

Speaker 3: 9:16

turned a point where, like, I had to decide like, do I want to live like these people, like do I want to try the lifestyle that they have or do I do I stick by what it is that I've been taught growing up and I didn't fully stick with it.

Speaker 3: 9:38

Definitely, like a lot of the curiosity of the world and like wanting to try something different was like a huge attraction for me and I mean, I didn't get super far with that. Like that came kind of crashing down, like when COVID hit, and it was like okay, I'm now alone with like kind of this newly developed person where I've kind of like started to live a little bit differently. And then I've got kind of faced with like okay, is this, is this what Jesus would be pleased with? Is Jesus pleased with the way that I'm living right now? But yeah, that was kind of like the really big turning point I'd say, with like owning my faith and realizing like Jesus is personally for me and not just a habit that I learn or a thing that I choose to like follow because other people do it.

Speaker 1: 10:47

Was it a personal? Well, let me ask it this way Did you in that moment realize that you couldn't deny that living for Jesus was the right way?

Speaker 3: 11:02

Yeah, I think I'll tell a little bit of a story which was kind of like was kind of like one of the biggest like rebellious things that I did like in that season. That kind of like made a lot of people around me real like who knew about it, realized like, okay, joel's like Joel's not fully convinced that like living for Jesus is like the lifestyle he wants, um, and that was like kind of being in the wrong crowd when I was in freshman year and um, I think a lot of times it was like just playing video games and a lot of like things we talk about. Um, it was just very like not not delighting in the Lord, not glorifying God, type of things. But there was one night where we had all planned to like sneak out and go like and it was kind of harmless but it was like go hang out um in downtown Raleigh in like the middle of the night and um, we had ended up like going walking on NC state's campus at like 2 AM and then I think a cop car pulled up and one of my friends had just like bolted it like, just like completely choked up and started running, and so at the end of that evening my parents had just like had to pick me up at like 3 am with these guys that are like two years older than me like have their license.

Speaker 3: 12:42

I was like 15 years old and they were just like astounded. They were like wow, like where did this come from? And it was just like just wanting to be known and accepted but like didn't realize that that was like Jesus was where that could be fulfilled to like the deepest capacity. But yeah, that was like definitely like a huge turning point of like whoa, like I got so far off like trying to seek after joy and something else. And then that was like when I really came to terms with like okay, do I want Jesus or do I not want Jesus?

Speaker 2: 13:27

Man. So it was a. There was a high like conviction and you know, from like square one.

Speaker 3: 13:37

Yeah, I really think I was given the grace to have that kind of conviction, but I definitely think, over time, like especially during that time period, like I really wanted to like to see how far I could take it the other way. You know, like with okay, like what can I do without feeling bad about it? You know, and kind of just curiosity I think anybody has when they're like an early teenager, like just wanting to try something different.

Speaker 1: 14:08

you know, yeah, it seems sounds like it wasn't really rooted in a place of like my, I'm losing faith and this doesn't matter. You're just kind of like I can't deny god, I can't deny God, I can't deny Jesus is Lord. But I still want to kind of taste what these people who are not living for him like. What is their life like? Is that?

Speaker 3: 14:33

accurate. Yeah, I think that's like really, I think that hits the nail on the head where it was like I don't think there was really a point in time like growing up all the way up until now I've denied Jesus' lordship and who he is, Because I think that I was given the grace to be able to see the evidence of it from a young age and just my life, yeah, all around me, but also just like in my life and like the blessing that I had, you know, like there wasn't really a time where I'd really decided to not believe, not have faith in it anymore. So, yeah, I'd say I agree with you on that.

Speaker 1: 15:22

The dad in me has to ask what did your parents do at three in the morning when they picked you up?

Speaker 3: 15:28

Well, they had asked me if I um had sex with anybody. And they they were, they were very concerned cause they didn't really know what to think, cause, like they had no idea that like I would do something like that. I was like really, really good at like hiding like that part of myself that was kind of trying to run with their own crowd. But like they were like what did you do? Just like, lay it out, like, what did you do? And um, like was super honest, straightforward with them, and then after that they were like all right, well, you, you're gonna be quarantined.

Speaker 3: 16:06

And then it was quarantine, so it was like another another evidence of like god's lordship was like not only did I like get to a place where I like needed to detox from like what I'd gotten myself into for like a couple of years, like it was also like the world was changing.

Speaker 2: 16:33

I too was homeschooled. I too lived this sheltered place and kind of played both sides of the fence for a long time and then, like, when I went to school, it was similar where it was, like, I believe in the Lord, I believe in the Lordship of God, but I also wanted to like press the boundaries on, like what I could do, cause part of me was excited about the freedom that that included, right, yeah, but like, for me, part of like part of opening the door to that rebellion was also added like kind of and I'm actually putting this together probably kind of for the first time recently but but like it brought anxiety with me like to me, were there other areas in your life that opening up like that rebellious door or like pressing the boundaries did, did other things like kind of get attached to you somehow? Like does that make sense?

Speaker 2: 17:42

Explain a little bit more like what getting attached to you like anxiety and other places in my life yeah yeah, I guess that's a better way to ask it Like were there other were were places? Were places of anxiety opened up in you, um, with the crowd that you were following? Or were there?

Speaker 3: 18:01

were there like areas of depression, or or were there areas of depression or stress that came alongside you as you opened the door to rebellion and hanging out with the wrong crowd that like led me to do those things? Was like growing up, I had this like deep ungodly belief that like I was a black sheep and that like I didn't fit the mold because I looked at like my family, especially getting into like my teenage years, like my older brother had like gotten like so far with the lord was like had a really amazing relationship with the Lord.

Speaker 2: 18:49

And just for the listeners who might not have context you have a younger brother and older brother.

Speaker 3: 18:54

Yes.

Speaker 2: 18:55

Your older brother was leading worship sometimes, right.

Speaker 3: 18:59

Yeah, and he had started like a student ministry.

Speaker 3: 19:02

I want to say shortly, oh wow, shortly after those events, but yeah, it was just felt like the temptation to like believe that I didn't fit the mold and I think that that created a desire to be accepted and be known and for this particular like group of people, it was like a battle to get accepted by them and I did like get pushed out and like ridiculed by them and it was like I was having to like earn their acceptance by like the things that I'd say and that I do and being funny and um, during that time of my life, like, I think that a lot of like the way that they treated me, it like fed this anxious desire to like oh, I need to do this because then they'll think I'm funny or they'll think that I'm cool and um, and I think the aftermath of it, like what really affected me, was when I had like gotten like grounded and like I wasn't talking to them anymore.

Speaker 3: 20:09

They were like going to my house and leaving signs in my yard being like free, joel, like get them out of there, and like we're accusing, like in like on social media, like saying things about my parents, like holding me prisoner and like it was just it was some serious stuff, but, like I think, when it got to that point and like it started to manifest in that way, my parents are like man, like these people, like they're controlling you, like they're they know that you care so much about what they think they're using your desire to be known and be like wanted you know, and I think that that was when I really recognized that, um and yeah, like I think that like the lord, like over time, like helped me realize, like wow, like this is actually something that's supposed to be satisfied in knowing Jesus and like being known by him and being loved by him is what's supposed to satisfy that.

Speaker 3: 21:15

But it definitely took a long time because that like root of like depression and anxiety and like that desire, like I looked to people for that like throughout high school I really want to say until like maybe like a few years ago or something, but like it was like a huge stronghold in my life really anxiety and depression yeah, um, I had dealt with like, um, like self-harm and um, like really, really depressing thoughts and um, yeah, it was just a lot that, um, um, that was connected with that root from like when I was really young.

Speaker 2: 22:04

Did you have like during those times? Did you have someone to share those things with, or was it? Was it something you shared with your parents, or did you feel alone, like?

Speaker 3: 22:16

I felt really alone, like, especially like growing up, um, in a church, for in like being at that church for long enough and like having people that like you're always around and there's like a church culture. For me it was like none of these people are going to understand and they're going to think they're going to think differently about me because of it and I don't think I yeah, I didn't even like tell my family or some of my closest friends about those struggles until, like, I was like being set free from it.

Speaker 1: 22:57

Wow.

Speaker 3: 22:57

But like it was just like perpetuated in high school for quite a while, but like there was a very specific like miracle that the lord did with that um when I was doing um the antioch discipleship school. I want to say it was like maybe three or four weeks into it, um, a friend of mine, um, had come up to me and said that he felt like the Lord wanted to heal me from anxiety and depression and prayed for me right there and I was healed from it.

Speaker 2: 23:33

Really.

Speaker 3: 23:34

Like those thoughts and anxieties, like didn't attack me the way that they used to.

Speaker 2: 23:41

Take us into that. Like was it? So this was something that you'd struggled with for years yeah, and it was like a very miraculous shift.

Speaker 3: 23:50

And it was like, yeah, because it was when I started that year. I had started working in construction and I had started like um kind of trying to figure out like my career and, um, I was doing the discipleship school. I was working like really long hours most weeks and during that period of time like I wasn't really concerned as much about like friends, really concerned as much about like friends if that makes sense, where it was like I had my. I was more like I was more satisfied with what I was getting from church community, especially with being in a school with other people learning about the story of God. But, um, but yeah, like it was a very, very like dramatic shift where, like all of a sudden, it was like unnoticeable, like change.

Speaker 2: 24:54

Really.

Speaker 3: 24:55

During the day, like I wouldn't have to stop and like plead with the Lord for those thoughts to go away anymore, because it used to be, like multiple times during the day, like my mood would just shift and it would be like wow, like I feel really terrible about myself, or something would come up from the past and it was like a very, very miraculous thing, like the Lord had done a miracle there, and I really think that that was when that root started to like become a lot less of an issue and it was so much easier for me to like trust the Lord, to receive like acceptance and receive like freedom from like the shame of like what I did, um with just like everything I did to try to get acceptance from other people. And um, yeah, it was. It's super hard to explain, like most miracles are, cause it was like supernatural, like it almost I don't even know how I would like psychologically analyze like how that shift happened.

Speaker 2: 26:15

But did you feel like? Did you feel physically different Like the very moment the prayer was done? Or did you feel physically different just like the next day, Cause there just was no anxiety attached?

Speaker 3: 26:28

I felt changed to like that moment like that moment like I had like an encounter with the Lord and and I knew it was different from like those encounters you'll have with Jesus where, like, you feel his nearness or you feel like a revelation of his love and then, like all the distractions come up and then you kind of like forget about it.

Speaker 3: 26:53

But it was like I had like a revelation of like the Lord was doing something special in my heart in that moment. And then those moments like followed, like the next few weeks, where, like I had like a continual it was almost like it was like multiple, like layers of revelation, of like receiving that freedom. Wow, and I and I really think that then, like one of the reasons why I think it was it felt so miraculous, is because the more and more I receive, like I kind of like dug deep into that revelation, the more I started to realize like these thoughts are rooted in like an absence of gratitude, because those depressive and anxious thoughts were like selfish, it was like I'm not good enough, me this, me that like it was almost like a revelation of like it's not about me and it's not about like if I'm sufficient or not yeah, that's really.

Speaker 1: 28:06

That's a really important revelation, I think, for men. I'm probably for women too, but I'm raising men and and I'm like I read in a book recently that one one of the core things men need to realize in life is this whole thing's not about us, it's not about you, it's not about Joel, it's not about Ryan, it's not about Chris. We're just a tiny, tiny little piece and that actually is super freeing, because if you're struggling with anxiety but you're constantly focused on how do I make this life, how do I live, walk this straight and narrow, how do I please God, how do I please my parents? How do I not look bad? How do I find acceptance? You're just constantly worried about yourself.

Speaker 1: 28:55

Yeah, and it's this form of selfishness, not the greedy form, but the, the. My thoughts are consumed with myself and my appearance and my, my peace and my this and my that, and like. It just is like we're not meant to live that way yeah, it's true and it, yeah, that's.

Speaker 3: 29:21

That's really where that came from.

Speaker 2: 29:24

I'd like an ungodly belief that was rooted in that, what kind of advice would you give to someone who is in those a like a, in that age bracket right Like in high school, and they feel like no one understands?

Speaker 3: 29:43

I think something that I heard a lot in high school was my parents, and they were so right to say this, but like nothing you'll say will surprise us, and I think that if I had realized that they meant it earlier, I would have been able to be free of like some of the self-harm that I struggled with, to be free of like some of the self-harm that I struggled with. And it's kind of sad to think about because, like I was prideful enough to believe that, like nobody could even try to understand that and it just sounded so like outlandish you know like I hadn't really heard anybody at least in church, from like my perspective as a high schooler or in youth group like nobody talked about that stuff.

Speaker 3: 30:28

Like sure, like you know, somebody might have been like, oh yeah, you know like a youth leader would be like, oh yeah, like I did this, you know, in high school, or I did that, whatever, but like stuff like that was like I just never heard of it before and struggling with it at that age was just like I just never heard of it before and struggling with it at that age was just like I need to hide this and um, yeah, I, the advice I'd give to someone in that age group is, um, deciding to feel ashamed of where you're at is going to like, keep you where you're at longer like if you decide to like believe that like where you're at it's because of you and solely you, like trying to deal with that stuff yourself is like not going to get you anywhere.

Speaker 3: 31:25

You know what I mean. And also choosing to believe that nobody else can understand, especially people 10 to 15 years older than you. You know it's just prideful to say that and it probably hurts to hear that, but like it's really prideful to say that, like nobody could possibly understand what you're going through because, there's a lot of people that have lived a lot of life, and being 15 or 16 doesn't give you a pass to make everybody else's story not matter you know,

Speaker 1: 31:59

that that's really interesting, man. There's nothing new under the sun, it's true. So if you've experienced it, you felt it. It's probably been experienced and felt by somebody older than you, I think. Hiddenness you mentioned hiddenness earlier. Like I'm, you were good at hiding. Yeah, I think that's a really dangerous thing in youth is to remain hidden, or even if it's not all of your life, but like if you're compartmentalizing things like oh, I'm not going to be open about these circles, I'm not going to be open about that. I feel like that's where you can just get. You just give the enemy so much territory and foothold in your life if it's hidden, right.

Speaker 3: 32:45

I think with men, like that's like a super, super common thing is like men are really really good at compartmentalizing, compartmentalizing everything in their life, like having this thing separated from that thing.

Speaker 3: 32:59

Like I'm not really sure about the science behind it, cause I'm not a scientist, but like yeah, I think, like for me, it was really easy to have, like yeah, and I think that that's like another thing with like integrity, which is like super, super important, where it's like having your, your school friends and then your church friends and your work friends or whoever, and you act different with each of them.

Speaker 3: 33:25

I think that like it's it's super, super important to learn Like if you're acting differently like everywhere, then you're like not the person that you say you are to each of those groups. You know, because, like you're, you don't even like have like this identity that you're sticking to, you know, and so, like that's one of the things with like men, especially young men, growing up, that's like it was really important for me to learn was, like, you know, deciding to like have know my this life and my that life, whatever, like it was just like it. It made me insecure about who I was, and rightfully so, because I was three different people, you know interesting, that is a very interesting point.

Speaker 1: 34:23

That's true, man how did you find who you were?

Speaker 3: 34:30

learned what jesus says I am who I am in jesus and um, I know that that sounds very tacky and very cliche, but like I think that going back to like that ungodly belief that I didn't fit the mold and that I was like a black sheep, like I needed to realize that the Lord used the people that like felt on the outside even though I wasn't like entirely like on the outside or not in the mold necessarily, like that was really just like a perception I had. I think that, like in reading the word and like seeing people that felt like that or maybe who were like that, I think that I had gotten an understanding of my identity in Jesus isn't shaken because of these outside circumstances, of how I feel or maybe my experience, and I think that it's really hard to describe in like a sentence or two how you find who you are and I don't think you know, I think the Lord is still speaking identity over me to this day, like oh sure.

Speaker 3: 35:52

Like you don't get full, like at least I'm not like fully realized yet, like I think the Lord still has a lot of different things that he wants to impart on my life and roles he wants me to play over time. But yeah, I don't. I don't know exactly who I am fully. No, I don't either, but I do know but I do know who Jesus says I am.

Speaker 2: 36:20

Was? Who helped reinforce that? Was that like your parents or was that like discipleship? Was that youth group Cause I? I think? I think it's pretty fascinating. Maybe it was just the word, you know, maybe you just reading the word over and over again and like choosing to believe that was part of that. I think that's really, really unique because for me it was like I knew what God said about me, but that still didn't get me out of my emotions or feelings. I still did feel like I wasn't enough. I still did feel like I was inadequate, and so was like, was discipleship pivotal in like that part of your life to like help reinforce that? Or was it your parents or was it like?

Speaker 3: 37:14

what was it? I really think it was obviously like the word and like the Lord ministering to my heart through, like you know, like the in the Beatitudes it says, like blessed are those who are poor in spirit, like I think in that season when I was recovering from um, a lot of like believing those things that I believed, like the Lord was met me in that place and reinforced my identity. But also during that time, like I was getting discipleship for the first time, like I didn't really know entirely what discipleship meant. Like prior to that in youth group I didn't really like have one-on-one connection with anybody Um, especially like someone older than me and I.

Speaker 3: 38:07

And during that time like I started to get discipleship and that was when I I feel like I really like got like certain things practically modeled. And then also like my family, like I don't think I could ever give like enough credit to like just doing life with my family and seeing like how they handle certain situations, how they treat me, how they treat each other. Like that definitely like reinforced my identity. And when you're in that stage of life of like being a teenager, like all of your emotions are elevated and like all the burning questions are so much like deeper than they actually are.

Speaker 3: 38:52

Some of them are, some of them are that deep, some of them aren't that deep. Like you know, am I this or am I that like, am I a painter or am I this? Like you know, it's like um, but yeah, like I definitely think that um, getting discipleship was like really one of the biggest things, at least that I noticed that like really reinforced my character and like what I knew my character to be.

Speaker 2: 39:23

During that season could you help lead worship? Sometimes your mom used to be the worship leader at the church. During those times would worship be kind of an outlet for you?

Speaker 3: 39:43

Getting into worship.

Speaker 3: 39:44

I don't think that was until maybe until I'd gotten a good bit of discipleship, like I was playing music and I was doing worship.

Speaker 3: 40:00

Um, was doing worship alone, outside of like a ministry context, but I definitely think that like receiving that gift and learning more about, like what the Lord wanted to do in my heart through it, and also like getting experience shifting my focus to the Lord, cause worship is about like shifting your focus to God's sovereignty, and I think getting more experience doing that and not becoming a habit in my life definitely changed my perspective and I think that that I don't think I could ever give that enough credit, cause, like, worship is one of the most beautiful gifts that the Lord's given us to to practice and to enjoy and to partner with him in. But like, yeah, I definitely think getting the opportunity to like shift focus and also like receive from the Lord during worship was one of the biggest things. But like, I didn't really like do that in a ministry context, like actually leading worship or being a musician worship, until a little bit later on.

Speaker 2: 41:22

How did the Lord grow you after high school? It's a really broad question. Let's see, well, when I kind of going out of high school, and maybe narrowing it down Like what was, what was, uh, what was one focus the Lord highlighted to you to work on, um, or to challenge you on as you finished high school?

Speaker 3: 41:57

Um, well, when I was graduating high school, I was like, faced with the decision, like I had two thoughts in my head and it was either to like try doing electrical, because I didn't know anything about it and I had gotten offered to do an apprenticeship, and then the other thing I really wanted to do was go to Liberty University and study music, because music was like a super important thing to me by the time that I had graduated high school.

Speaker 3: 42:28

So it was like either become a worship pastor, hopefully, or try this electrical thing the video game thing was not on your radar anymore yeah, that had like fell into the background, um, but yeah, like I just remember panicking and I wanted to take like a gap year, like a gap semester or something, but my dad was like no, you're not gonna do that. Like you're gonna do something, like it doesn't matter what it is that you do, but like you just have to do something. And I think it was important for me to get that, because I really wanted to be avoidant and I wanted to like, um, hyper-spiritualize it and feel like I needed to get like this audible voice of the Lord, like confirmation of what it was that I was supposed to do. And I was like super scared to like make a decision for myself.

Speaker 3: 43:21

And I just remember that being like a super stressful decision, um, especially because, like I couldn't say neither, like I had to do something. And I just remember like one of my friends like sitting down with me and being like all right, you can make a pros and cons list and if you look at the pros and cons and you still decide the one that has more cons, then I mean you you know what it is that you want to do. But I think one of the biggest challenges and one of the ways that the Lord grew me through that season. One of the biggest challenges was feeling like, if I had decided not to pursue music that that was squandering what the Lord had given me, like the gift and the passion that he had given me to do it.

Speaker 2: 44:07

Okay, hold on. So not pursuing that would squander the gift for worship or music that he's given you. Yeah, that's what I had felt like.

Speaker 3: 44:17

Gotcha. So for me it was like okay, lord, like is this what you're asking me to do, or is this like is this not what how you want me to use the gift that you've given me? And I really felt like the Lord, like just said no, it was like I want you to like learn how to work hard. I want you to learn how to do this.

Speaker 3: 44:46

And doing the apprenticeship was like the more like shrouded with mystery option, because I didn't really know what to expect, like I didn't know anything about it, and so I was like, all right, I'm going to try it and I can always like quit if I don't like it.

Speaker 3: 45:06

But it was very surprising getting into it because almost immediately getting into it, the Lord had put people in my like with training me and whatever in my workplace, people that loved the Lord and that wanted to teach me like what doing work unto the Lord looks like like working, like doing the right thing when nobody's looking how to treat your coworkers and being in an construction environment, especially the one I was in, it was like hostile, hostile at certain points in time, like hostile, hostile at certain points in time.

Speaker 3: 45:44

And and at certain points it was like just super difficult to be the new guy, especially like not knowing anything, like that was like basically like asking to be like made fun of and asking to be like pranked and it was it's kind of difficult, but like the Lord like covered me in that season and I think that that really really taught me to be like reliant on the Lord.

Speaker 3: 46:16

It was like again, like it was just another point of stop being so like worried about yourself and what it is that you're going to do, or like what you think you need, but like just trust the Lord with the outcome of what's going to happen and trusting the Lord with that decision, like he provided, like someone's to model, like spiritually, like how to be a laborer, how to do your work unto the Lord and do an excellent job. Yeah, I'd really say that was probably one of the biggest ways that the Lord grew me was like just covering me and me having to submit to that, that like I can't do any of it by myself, that I'm like fully dependent on the Lord covering me through those seasons where I just don't know what I'm doing.

Speaker 2: 47:15

I like that your dad like made you uh work or like do something.

Speaker 3: 47:24

Yeah, he was. He was very happy that I went with going to work rather than going to a college that I'd probably get into a lot of debt doing because Liberty university is kind of it's kind of expensive.

Speaker 1: 47:38

Yes, it is.

Speaker 3: 47:39

Especially for, like a creative arts. It's probably not going to pay off for a long time, but yeah.

Speaker 2: 47:49

What would you so? What would you say that you learned about here's? Here's something that I'm kind of curious on, like you wanting to you the way you put it over. Spiritualize it. Um Lord, how am I? Am I squandering this gift you've given me by choosing something different? What did you learn by like, in that process, by choosing something different?

Speaker 3: 48:19

I learned that when the Lord asks you to do something, that seems kind of weird and kind of crazy a lot of times it's him asking you to trust him. And I think that I like, over the years, like, even like within, from then until now, like the Lord's still doing it. Like the Lord like asking me to go overseas on mission, like I don't feel like I'm a talented evangelist, but like the Lord has asked me to like trust him and do and do what he asked me to do or what he's invited me to do. And I think that with that like, the Lord has continued to like show me that like it's about, like being fully dependent on him for what it is that I need, and like knowing that, like, if I submit and I like lay this other stuff down in this moment, like he is my exceedingly great reward.

Speaker 2: 49:21

But yeah, man, that's cool. What is the Lord doing now?

Speaker 3: 49:32

That's a good question.

Speaker 2: 49:34

I feel like the older I've gotten and I'm not very old the more I've You're 20 years old, I think, the more which is young. The older I've gotten, the more I've you're 20 years old.

Speaker 3: 49:44

I think the more young, the older I've gotten, the more I've gotten comfortable with like not knowing what's going on, like not knowing what the lord's doing. Honestly, like, and I I told my parents that one time and they're like dude, that's it. Like you never. Like you never know what you're doing. Like the Lord's always asking you to. Like, lean on him more.

Speaker 3: 50:07

And the more and more you lean on him, the less that you like have everything planned out and like know exactly what's going to happen, like the Lord's going to give you. You have to trust the Lord for insight, obviously, because being prepared is important, and the Lord's going to give you like insights into, like what's coming, so that you can be prepared and like be obedient. But like the dependence part is like that's really what he's been drilling into me. It's just like you got to be like wide open and not be attached to like one certain outcome.

Speaker 1: 50:45

It's something I am picking up on. Your story is like you, your parents modeled, have modeled vulnerability, but then you kind of had to experience it yourself right In your teenage years and they modeled. Your dad has modeled like hard work, but you you have to experience it yourself like something about. You just have to do it. You just have to go through life and see how God takes you through things, his relationship with you through things. Like even your answer to Ryan's question. He's like how did you handle this? I was like well, it was just the Lord ministering to me. It was like the main thing. I think there's like no substitute and I think about this a lot because I'm raising teenagers right now and I'm like gosh, if they would just listen to everything I said.

Speaker 1: 51:40

You rarely get one of those. It would be this smooth journey, right, but then when they make a mistake, and then they actually take it to us, take it to the Lord, there's this depth of relationship that they develop, there's this depth of character.

Speaker 3: 52:00

Yeah, that's true, I don't know.

Speaker 1: 52:01

It's like this paradox I don't want my kids to make mistakes, but then when they happen, there's always this gracious time that happens, this deepening of intimacy that happens with us in them and then them in the Lord, hopefully.

Speaker 2: 52:20

And they're talking about that right, that is really interesting. Yeah you're right. I think I knew that, but I don't think I realized that.

Speaker 3: 52:32

Yeah, and to kind of like you're definitely picking up on something, because the way that my older brother was growing up, he was a very like there were times where my parents had to force him to like take things to the Lord and like figure out the answer himself, because he was so like he looked to them for every answer to what was going on. When he was a teenager, like he was constantly like just tell me what to do. But on when he was a teenager, like he was constantly like just tell me what to do, but like I was kind of the opposite. I was like no, I just want to try this and like see what happens, because like I don't, I don't know if, like I don't understand like why I have to do what you're you think I should do. It was very dangerous. It was very.

Speaker 3: 53:20

There are a lot of hard things that I had to endure through doing that and choosing to do it that way, but I think it was important for me because I think that the Lord wanted me to kind of like you said like is like this graceful experience of like you had gone and you had like experienced these things in life and the Lord is like guiding you kind of like a child, like stumbling, stumbling over his footsteps and like not quite making it, but like I think it taught me a lot earlier to like not have to hide my weakness because, like you have to be fully dependent with the Lord and a big part of that is not is being comfortable with like your weakness and not feeling like you have to be perfectionistic if that makes sense yeah where, like you can't handle making a mistake, or you can't handle like missing the mark, like being quick to be, like lord, like forgive me, lord, renew my mind.

Speaker 3: 54:32

What's the next step?

Speaker 1: 54:33

yeah, I think as a father, I feel like I don't expect perfection, but I do hope that they learn from the mistakes that are made, yeah, and that it forms character and it contributes to their spiritual development and their maturity. But at the same time, you're like, I want you to avoid the big mistakes, because they're harder to recover from right.

Speaker 2: 55:10

Yeah, that's true, it goes just like. It's a better picture of why compliance isn't the answer. Explain that picture of why compliance isn't the answer.

Speaker 1: 55:31

Explain that. I, I, I. I think I get what you're saying. Yeah, so there's a difference between compliance and obedience. Yeah, yeah, it's the heart of it, yeah, and it's like compliance can be the it's like a brainless for man. Yeah, without the understanding and the wisdom in the heart of it. Yeah, whereas obedience is like all right I kind of have to understand this. Yeah, but I trust you.

Speaker 2: 55:55

It's active in the in the process as we were like all talking like that. The story that came to mind is the prodigal son, right, where it's like you have the extreme prodigal who pushed the boundaries on what was good and right, and then you have the other son who was completely compliant. Both led to hurt, right? The prodigal son was hurt because he realized his decisions weren't actually giving him life. But then the other son was hurt because he was compliant and he did everything quote, unquote right. But he still had a distorted view of what that compliance got him. And it's not about either one. It's about the invitation that the Father gives you during those hard times.

Speaker 3: 56:51

And I think that that's our opportunity to understand the heart of God, to receive revelation, of knowing what His heart for us is like to receive revelation of like knowing like what his heart for us is, is whether it's a season where you feel like you're more compliant or you're more like the prodigal son which for me, I think I've definitely had both where I feel like I'm just like rolling with the punches and doing whatever I feel like God's telling me, and then one day it's like whoa, actually, like now I'm really struggling because I didn't even think about like what it costs to do this, doing whatever I feel like.

Speaker 2: 57:25

God's telling me.

Speaker 3: 57:25

And then one day it's like whoa, actually, like now I'm really struggling because I didn't even think about, like what it cost to do this. And then other times it's like, okay, I'm actually like trying so hard on my own to like figure this out, but like, yeah, the Lord like wants us to seek after his heart in those things. I think that that's what you're really touching on.

Speaker 2: 57:45

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1: 57:46

I think a lot about my own disobedience and I'm like I feel like my own and going through my own disobedience. I understand the story of Jonah and the whale a lot more, where he was just like direct disobedience, like, oh, you want me to go to nineveh, I'm going to tarshish, just like goes the other way and then, just being selfish, she's like I, I don't. I know you're going to forgive these people and I don't want to see that, but then the storm comes and then he thinks he's going to die.

Speaker 2: 58:34

Jonah proceeds to commit suicide before repenting.

Speaker 1: 58:41

Basically, yeah, he's like you guys got to throw me overboard or you're all going to die. At least he's got the humility to acknowledge that, to save other people's lives. And then God brings this fish and it's like I don't know.

Speaker 1: 58:55

I feel like God has brought storms and fish in my life when I've disobeyed and I'm very thankful I'm thankful for it now but, like it's hard to see sometimes, the beauty in the storm and the and that is being swallowed by fish is actually part of the rescue plan and it may not just be your rescue plan. It might be a rescue plan.

Speaker 2: 59:19

It might be part of a blessing for many others to come to like, like jonah was but how can I ask you a question how difficult has that been on the other side of seeing, as a father, seeing your son? Not that any of your kids have made, like you know, crazy mistakes, but like how, what, what is the frustration for yourself to make a mistake is enough, but I bet the frustration to see your son make a mistake is probably worse.

Speaker 1: 1:00:05

um, has that been hard to like, I'd actually say for me, I would actually say it's probably not as frustrating. Hmm, I think I tend to maybe be harder on myself, though, but you love your child so much you're kind of like you're frustrated, for sure, and you're upset that you, that you see them struggling yeah, and you're.

Speaker 1: 1:00:37

You're upset at the lack of character, you're upset at the lack of integrity or whatever you're seeing. But I think my mind goes immediately, you know, after the initial emotional reaction of like disappointment or whatever it is, you're like, oh my gosh, I truly love this person so much. I just want them to learn from this. I want this to move them towards the Lord. That's my hope always. I hope that this deepens and strengthens their walk with the Lord.

Speaker 3: 1:01:12

Yeah, I think something that's really cool with, like the story of Jonah, like you're talking about the kind of abstract event of like the storm that, like we all experience, which is like whether we're deciding to be, you know, overtly compliant, where we've, you know, said yes to everything, and then all of a sudden, the storm comes and they're like what, lord, I thought you were here, what?

Speaker 3: 1:01:47

And then you have all the questions come up or you're super disobedient and then you're mad at the Lord because there's a storm and you know.

Speaker 3: 1:01:57

But like I think something that, like I've realized with those storms is like, I think, a lot of the reason why I've like missed the heart of the lord in those moments, whether being on like one or the other extreme, has been like definitely attributed to like being in a hurry, like trying to rush through life, like missing, like delighting in the lord, and I think that that's like one of the biggest things that I feel like gets in the way of like being at that place of like obedience, counting the cost.

Speaker 3: 1:02:43

It's just like being in this place of like constant delight in Jesus, and when you're in like a hurry or you're trying to make something happen, trying to generate an outcome trying to manufacture fruit, whatever it is that you're trying to do? An outcome, trying to manufacture fruit, whatever it is that you're trying to do? Like, think a lot of the reason why, like we fall on our face or we get super confused when the storm comes and you know whether the Lord, like throws a curve ball and something in our life doesn't happen the way we thought it would happen, or whatever it is that gets thrown at us. It's like it's just an invitation to go back to like just you and him and delighting in who he is.

Speaker 1: 1:03:28

That's a really good point.

Speaker 2: 1:03:31

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:03:31

You know there's I'm reading a book on storytelling I guess is the best way to put it the art and the craft of a good story, and it's like nobody likes a good. Nobody likes just like everything is awesome all the time, like it started awesome and it's just remained awesome and it's just getting more awesome. That's like a children's book might do that, but no good literature. Almost nothing in the bible is like well, it's just been smooth sailing. You know we're like I'm in I'm in.

Speaker 2: 1:04:11

I'm in investing, I'm an investor like in the finance world right.

Speaker 1: 1:04:15

so like there's the stuff that's like always up into the right is like the most boring low return stuff out there. It's true, you want something that's only ever going to have updates. That exists, but it's not as good. The long-term return is so much lower than if you're willing to take the ups and downs of things, it's true, and it's like there's a parallel of that in life.

Speaker 3: 1:04:42

it's like if you can go through the mountains and the valleys with god, your relationship with him is so much better yeah, and it's really easy to count those things as like curses rather than gifts, like I definitely think that there's this place, like what you're describing, when you start to realize that, like the highs of the mountains of like feeling completely connected with Jesus, and then the valleys where you feel like, oh, like there's all this sin, there's these things, and like I don't feel like the Lord's here, those are all instruments that the Lord is using, whether it's a good thing or it's a bad thing, the Lord is using it for the good of those who love him and it's like it's reflective of the story of Jesus.

Speaker 1: 1:05:31

I mean, you ever think about God. God may have tipped off the cops when you're out that night at three in the morning, it's true.

Speaker 3: 1:05:41

And that might be a huge blessing, right? Because if you don't get caught.

Speaker 1: 1:05:45

Then what do you do? Do you do it again? Do you do it again? Do you find, does it become one of your most favorite things? Do you elevate, Do you escalate?

Speaker 3: 1:05:53

Yeah, that's true. I definitely think there's a lot of moments in my life. I definitely think there's a lot of moments in my life where the Lord like totally like, like busted me in the act and it was like I'm so glad, like, looking back on it in hindsight, I'm like Jesus, I'm so glad that you like exposed me and humiliated me there because I needed it. Exposed me and humiliated me there because I needed it Not.

Speaker 3: 1:06:21

A lot of us look at it that way. Whether it's like, oh, like got you know, like got an addiction exposed, or like you know, um, you know says something really nasty and everyone confronts you about it. It's like you don't think about it like that in the moment, but like, yeah, in hindsight it definitely does look more that way yes, yep, I tell it.

Speaker 1: 1:06:49

It's a good thing. It's a good thing. In the long run, it's better to have exposure. It's just like being in the light. It's like hiddenness versus accountability, dark versus light.

Speaker 3: 1:07:04

Get it out in the light yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:07:06

All right. So how does one get through adolescence as good as possible Unscathed? You've just come out of it. You're 20 years old. I'm not unscathed, not Unscathed. You've just come out of it You're 20 years old.

Speaker 3: 1:07:22

I'm not unscathed, not unscathed.

Speaker 1: 1:07:26

I'm pretty scathed, you're pretty scathed.

Speaker 3: 1:07:31

But it's healing.

Speaker 1: 1:07:33

Okay, whether you're scathed or unscathed, you're walking with Jesus at 20. You're scathed or unscathed, you're walking with Jesus at 20. And you're devoting your life to serving him and worshiping him and knowing him. So what would you say to the 14, 15, 16, 17, 18-year-olds that are kind of in the thick of that adolescence man, 18 year olds that are kind of in that the thick of that adolescence?

Speaker 3: 1:08:03

Um, man, it's a hard question because there's a whole lot that people experience in adolescence and sometimes people experience it at like. Everyone at the same time experiences things like finding women attractive or, um, whatever. But, like, sometimes people experience things differently, whether it's like feeling rejected by friends or whatever it is. But I think, probably the biggest thing, I'd say this is kind of difficult, but like, um, don't feel like that you have to be this person you painted in your head as like the ideal, like follower of Jesus that does all the works and does all the things. Because as soon as you start to compare yourself to this other person that you see, that you think is like the best believer you've ever seen, or compare yourself to someone that's literally like a decade ahead of you in relationship with Jesus, doing that is going to like thieve you of the joy that you get of being in the moment with Jesus. Like you think of, like, maybe like having depressive thoughts and thinking like, oh, like Ryan wouldn't think this. Or like, oh, chris wouldn't think this or whatever it is. Or like something you're doing, like you know, maybe you're like drinking or you're having sex, or you're smoking weed. Like like, don't let comparison, wherever you're at, be the thief of like, the joy of like coming back to Jesus and encountering him.

Speaker 3: 1:09:56

Because I think that there were a lot of moments in like being a teenager where, like, I was doing these things and I was like, okay, well, this person wouldn't have done it and then that just completely thieved me from like receiving the grace of God. Obviously, the Lord redeemed that. The Lord's going to redeem those moments. You know you may, you know I think a lot of people are going to redeem those moments. You know you may, you know you may I think a lot of people are going to have those moments where they compare themselves or they, you know, think that the Lord doesn't have grace on them.

Speaker 3: 1:10:29

But yeah, the biggest thing I'd say is just like, don't let the enemy steal the joy of like living with Jesus and the now, with the, the mountains and the valleys of what you're going through, because you're going to have a lot more of that in the future, like when you're Ryan's age and you have three boys and trying to run your own business. You know, like, you know, you know you're, you're gonna have difficulties there. You're gonna have difficulties being a teenager and you're gonna have difficulties when you have a 16 year old who doesn't want to fold his laundry. I mean, it's like you have to enjoy jesus in the moment and there are all these things of comparison that's going to try to take that away from you.

Speaker 2: 1:11:23

It's really good.

Speaker 3: 1:11:24

Especially in the social media age, like it's super easy to look at somebody else that you think is super on fire for the Lord and never struggles, and it's like it's totally like so easy to feel that way yeah I'm sure you guys can relate yeah, yeah, social media is like it's like the sports center of people's lives, but curated by you themselves.

Speaker 1: 1:11:54

it's just like a human highlight reel. I kind of just don't put a lot of stock into it, but I'm a grumpy old 43-year-old, you know when it comes to that stuff. But yeah, comparison is comparison can steal a lot of joy. I think that's really pretty wise.

Speaker 2: 1:12:17

I've seen a lot of joy being stolen from you because of your comparison to Warren. It's me. Yeah, I just want you to know you shouldn't compare yourself to Warren.

Speaker 1: 1:12:30

Well, his biceps are a lot bigger than mine.

Speaker 3: 1:12:36

His gains, his gains. How do you think I feel?

Speaker 2: 1:12:45

Joel, I've said this before, but I think, uh, you have wisdom beyond your years immensely. I appreciate you being on.

Speaker 3: 1:12:55

Thank you guys for having me on. Yes, I the more and more I thought about coming on, the more I was like I just want like a little bit more to share. But I definitely think that I need to take my own advice and like enjoy what Jesus has given me in the moment.

Speaker 1: 1:13:14

I think you know you've lived 20 years and this will be really valuable to. I mean, I've learned stuff in the time here. I think you have great insights for everybody. Yeah, I agree, but you know, for people who are 18 years old, 16 years old, 22 years old, I mean you're right in the sweet spot of a lot of it's very pivotal and critical time in people's lives. It's a formative time. You're in the middle of an extremely formative time with respect to a lot of people's faith. A lot of people maintain or abandon their faith in the years you're currently living. So I'm impressed by your journey and how you've responded to the ups and downs and I think this will be immensely valuable.

Speaker 3: 1:14:05

Thank you.

Speaker 2: 1:14:05

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 1:14:06

I'm I'm very grateful for like what you guys bring with your podcast and I'm honored to have been given the opportunity to share my story and things that Jesus has done in my life.

Speaker 2: 1:14:22

Thanks, man, it's a privilege to hear it. Thank you Bye. Thank you.