Speaker 1: 0:00

Hey everyone, this is Chris.

Speaker 2: 0:01

I'm Ryan From the Uncommon Path podcast, the scripture Revelation 12, 11 says and they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony. Our hope is that as you listen, you will be encouraged in the Lord. This podcast was created as an avenue to share people's raw and unfiltered journeys with him. We hope this brings breakthrough and intimacy with Jesus through their testimony of what God is doing through their lives. I've never done that before. I just thought I'd do that.

Speaker 1: 1:00

Felt good at the time.

Speaker 2: 1:03

They're not all winners, you know, and that's okay, they're not all winners and that's okay.

Speaker 1: 1:08

We're in an environment of grace. Yeah, you can fail, however hard as you need to Gosh.

Speaker 2: 1:17

that's great. We're here today with David Klinger.

Speaker 1: 1:22

Klingler.

Speaker 2: 1:23

Klingler. Thank you.

Speaker 1: 1:24

Two L's Whoa David Klingler, klingler, klingler. Thank you. Two L's Whoa David Klingler Strike two, I'm so sorry, yep.

Speaker 2: 1:30

All right, two L's, david's ready to leave.

Speaker 1: 1:34

I did that to Ben Wickle too. Two L's, ben Yep.

Speaker 2: 1:39

David.

Speaker 1: 1:40

Klingler, klingler, two L's.

Speaker 2: 1:42

Dude. Thanks, clingler two l's. Uh. Dude thanks for being here. Very excited to hear your story yeah man. Um, I would love for you to just kind of share briefly kind of what you do, how long you've been married, where you're from okay, I am from central north carolina, so I was born in Raleigh, grew up in Fuquay and live in Raleigh.

Speaker 1: 2:05

Now I got married October 22nd 2022 to Stephanie. She's wonderful, very wonderful and, um, yeah, I'm a game programmer and yeah.

Speaker 2: 2:24

What is a fun fact about yourself that no one knows? That?

Speaker 1: 2:29

no one knows, or very few people.

Speaker 2: 2:33

Very few people. Yeah, if you can't think, if you can't dig that deep, foul ball run.

Speaker 1: 2:37

That was a foul ball. Yeah, I mean, I write a lot of Scottish fiddle music.

Speaker 2: 2:43

Whoa really. Yeah, I mean, a lot of people know that, but I guess it's a Scottish fiddle music.

Speaker 1: 2:45

Whoa really. Yeah, I mean, a lot of people know that, but I guess it's a fun fact though.

Speaker 2: 2:49

You write a lot of what Scottish fiddle music. No way, yeah, I did not know that. Yeah, that is super cool. I knew that you played the violin, but I did not know that you wrote specific music genres. Yeah, that's cool Dude, that's really cool yeah thanks yeah. Wow, how long have you been playing violin?

Speaker 1: 3:11

Since November of 2000.

Speaker 2: 3:14

Oh, wow, yeah, A long time.

Speaker 1: 3:17

Yeah, I started focusing on Scottish music in summer of 2006.

Speaker 2: 3:21

How old were you at that time?

Speaker 1: 3:23

Let's see, I was eight in 2000, I guess. Yeah, so I was born in 1992 and then 2006. So was that 13, 14, yeah?

Speaker 2: 3:37

wow, that's amazing. That's really cool. What? What made you like the violin?

Speaker 1: 3:45

well, um, I mean to to start off, you know my whole family's musicians, various different instruments, and remember my brother was playing music and I'm like man, I want to play music, like come on, you know.

Speaker 1: 4:01

and uh, so my parents were, you know, supportive of that, and it's's like, okay, well, what do you want to play? And, um, I was reading some books at the time about Albert Einstein's life, like some biographies, and uh, he played the violin and I was like that'd be cool, I'll play the violin, you know, and that's pretty much the entirety of the decision.

Speaker 1: 4:22

But then um there were, um, you know, there are certain things just for anyone who starts playing the violin, like there are certain things that are easier and maybe a little bit less natural, but it worked pretty smoothly for me from the beginning and I don't know. I just I really liked playing the instrument. And and over the years I've just liked it more and more, like that's only increased. It's a very special part of my life and, yeah, I feel like, um, the violin is more than an instrument, it's like a, it's like having a left arm.

Speaker 2: 4:57

For me, Wow, yeah, that's really cool. What was, what was your like kind of growing up, like how many siblings do you do you have? And, um, where was God in the picture growing up?

Speaker 1: 5:13

Yeah, I had one brother, um, and my parent, my parents, um, so my mom, so Christian, and my dad well, my dad grew up in an Episcopal family too, just like my mom, Episcopal church and, um, you know, I remember growing up there was some disagreement about God, Um, but in general, like, I considered myself a Christian and, um, I remember when I was four, uh, like walking outside and talking with God and like I remember hearing him. So I mean, even as I grew up, you know, in high school, a lot of my friends were, you know, the militant atheists you know, and, and it would inevitably come up in conversation that I considered myself a Christian and I didn't, to be honest, didn't really know what that meant, but it's like it's kind of hard to deny somebody.

Speaker 1: 6:10

When you talked with them, Like legitimately like well, I can't say, I can't say that he's not real, because I talked with him, like how could I even try to say that, you know?

Speaker 2: 6:20

Wow.

Speaker 1: 6:20

And so you know no-transcript problems, and so I definitely needed some intervention from God.

Speaker 2: 6:59

Yeah, what was? Was that relationship with God? Did that like how was how? Was that like as you grew up into high school? Was that like did you follow him always?

Speaker 1: 7:12

no, no no, so I mean I was a christian in the most minimalist sense of the word um like there was, you know, I, I had a pretty strong conscience and I was very particular about my values and things like that. I had a very serious problem with authority. As long as I can remember and I think some of that goes back to a daycare I was at at one point Just some rough things. But yeah, I always had like going through elementary school and middle school and even high school. I always had like disagreements with teachers in the middle of class and I was pretty disruptive and, um, you know, I think that calling myself a Christian was looking back, was a little bit silly at times, you know, um, so that's why I like a lot of the time now when explaining, kind of the whole timeline, you know, I'll say that I considered myself a Christian, but maybe I really wasn't, you know, even though I, you know, I, I, my opinion was that Jesus was, was probably divine, and I do think that he, you know, was resurrected, um, and I do think that there's god and I think that he was a creator, you know.

Speaker 1: 8:31

But beyond that, I had no idea what I thought and it was just those things. It was like I don't know, it just seems so obvious. I can't deny it in good conscience, and that was the limit of my Christianity. Everything else, like you know, I dived into all sorts of stuff, like I listened to pretty horrible music that I would now consider probably demonic, you know, at least not very spiritually life-giving, and I was way into that, you know. And, yeah, all sorts of things to that you know, and, um, yeah, all sorts of things. I mean, you just have the curiosities where you, you know, you learn about satanism and things like that and it's like, oh well, okay, well, some of that makes sense, I guess, and just, there's, there's an infinity of rabbit holes besides the narrow path and I definitely dived along a lot of those.

Speaker 2: 9:21

yeah, yeah, hopefully this will lead us into a good rabbit trail sure my grandfather always said the deepest rabbit trail leads to the juiciest carrot. So I have a feeling we're on to a juicy carrot here. David, you mentioned satanism. Was that something that you looked at it into?

Speaker 1: 9:56

like out of curiosity at some point that I was fascinated by the concept that, because I remember as a little kid one time I was at the grocery store with my mom and I was complaining about the devil with her, which is so funny, but I was just like man. I really don't like him, you know, like just all these things Just like you know, very kid complaining thing.

Speaker 1: 10:24

And then I remember her saying that there were people in the world who worship the devil and I was like that doesn't even make sense, why would they do that? Like he's mean and all these things, you know. But I remember that stuck with me and, um, you know, years later, with some of the music that I listened to and games that I played and stuff, like there were people in those communities who you know they called themselves Satanists and I had some friends in high school that said that they were atheists but they all they were also Satanists. I'm like there's a. I don't know what that means.

Speaker 1: 10:54

Like how can you be both, you know?

Speaker 1: 10:57

And it's this concept where like they'll claim, and I mean, I think all of it is kind of just made up, you know, I think it's just a lot of BS, but they, um, one of the you know, one of the explanations I got is, like, well, there are theistic Satanists and then there are, you know um, atheistic Satanists, and it's just kind of. It's a just kind of a tension thing and, um, I think that, uh, going down those rabbit trails was just, it was just my, my curiosity, you know, yeah, but I never like embraced any of it. It was always just like trying to understand what they believed. Um, but I was certainly open to the ideas, you know yeah at the time.

Speaker 2: 11:46

Yeah, it's interesting yeah, what was the? So what was like? What kind of like did you continue just going down into like that curiosity thing until there was a point where you were like I don't know about all this, or?

Speaker 1: 12:07

Yeah, well, I mean, I don't think, um, I don't think it was ever really a major interest for me.

Speaker 1: 12:13

It was kind of just a passing, passing thing where, you know, I was really into games and I was really into music and things like that and um, but it was, it was, it was never something I could wrap my mind around.

Speaker 1: 12:24

And so a lot of the times with things like that and um, but it was, it was, it was never something I could wrap my mind around, and so a lot of the times with things like that, I'll keep reading and keep asking people things and exploring that until I understand it. But I mean, or, or until I get to a point where I'm like, yeah, this is completely ridiculous. And so I definitely got to a point with a lot of that where I'm like, yeah, this is completely ridiculous. But there are some people where, um, it seems like there's legitimate power there, like, and it seems like they are actually using this um like a darker, spiritual side of things and it, you know, it seemed, this seems to be real yeah and that was concerning, because when I was like in high school, for example, example, I didn't have an understanding of that Like the most supernatural thing that I knew of was hearing God's voice.

Speaker 1: 13:11

I still couldn't explain that, but it's like well, shoot, I experienced it. Like yeah. I don't think that was just imagined you know, and but I didn't know anything about, like healings. I didn't know anything about any of that stuff. But in all that, all that reading, I was like some of this seems real and that was very alarming to me.

Speaker 2: 13:33

Yeah, and was this all during high school?

Speaker 1: 13:36

you said yeah, yeah, pretty much all high school. What was?

Speaker 2: 13:40

so what was like out of high school? Did you move out of your parents' house or were you still living with them? What? Was life like after high school.

Speaker 1: 13:50

Well, so in high school, stuff got pretty dark for me and so, before we leave that kind of stage in the timeline kind of stage in the timeline, um, I was having a lot of issues with depression and, um, uh, ended up in a mental hospital for a while. Um, I had, I had a lot of problems. There's some suicide attempts and, um, you know, it was at a point where I wanted to just kind of, where I wanted to just kind of just be done with it and move on and I didn't understand, kind of where I was at spiritually. It wasn't, I don't know, it wasn't that significant to me in terms of importance because, like I said, I consider myself a Christian and you know I was baptized as a baby in the Episcopal Church and you know I was baptized as a baby in the episcopal church and I think that, um, you know the the kind of darkness that I was at in my life, um, that was pretty much the entirety of the day.

Speaker 1: 14:54

Most of the time it didn't have good relationships. They were terrible, terrible relationships, um and uh, you know, even with my friends, like things just weren't very stable and um, of course, that was hard on my parents, you know, and it was hard on my older brother and, um, but yeah, it was a lot of a lot of crying, just very desperate time, and and I I, you know got on a bunch of medications which kind of made me somewhat of a zombie and they slowed me down a lot.

Speaker 1: 15:31

You know, like I, I really liked playing different games that were particularly fast Um, super smash with his melee quake three, you know games like that and so, um, I kind of resented the side effects because, you know, they made me feel slow and I ended up like, I mean, I had speech problems when I was a little kid and then I had speech classes and when I was able to speak more clearly, but when I was on the medications I had trouble saying my name and like that was such a basic thing that like really bothered me and I wasn't, you know, I I was, I was so depressed that like that of course takes a toll on your school and I just didn't care about school and I wanted to quit and um, but I did graduate high school and um, you know, I was on a bunch of medications but but I was, you know what I thought was fairly stable and I'm I start going to school for computer science, which was a surprise to most of the people I knew, cause they're like, well, I thought you were going to do violin performance, you know.

Speaker 1: 16:35

I'm like no way Cause. So my mom was a music major before she became a teacher and while she was a music major, like it took the joy out of playing music for her. So I was like I'm not going down that path, like I don't want to lose the violin, because during that difficult period in high school the violin was like that was my safe haven, basically wow and um that was like your safe space to sanity and everything else.

Speaker 2: 17:06

Exactly, exactly.

Speaker 1: 17:07

Um, even definitely even more so than the games. Like, I played a bunch of competitive games and I was in marching band and I played chess and things like that. But uh, yeah, I mean the, the violin was was very core to surviving that period.

Speaker 2: 17:24

Real quick. You said you heard the voice of the Lord at such a young age. Were you still able to hear the voice of the Lord through all of this time, or was it distorted?

Speaker 1: 17:35

It was very occasional. I remember talking with him when I was four. It was one of my earliest memories, earliest conscious memories. I was walking outside in the yard with my little cat, Luna our outdoor cat, and I just talked with God. I called it God and God's grandpa, and like I would just be out there for hours just hanging out with him.

Speaker 1: 18:00

And when I would go inside, my parents were like, who are you talking to out there, you know, and I'm like I you talking to out there, you know, and I'm like I was talking to God and God's grandpa. They're like, oh okay, you know, okay, but I mean, I remember it, it just made sense to me and you know, now, looking back, it's probably Jesus and the father, I don't know, but I don't know it was.

Speaker 1: 18:25

It was cool and it was just like just regular talking. It wasn't anything profound like that. I remember anyway well just regular stuff. He just legitimately cared and he knew everything about me, knew everything about my family, you know so just like somebody would talk to a four-year-old yeah, yeah wow like a grandpa talking to a little kid and yeah and that, and so it's like, yeah, I'm not gonna forget that yeah and then there were times where you know I would, I would get an impression or hear words or see something you know and um, and I would, you know, identify as like that's you know, and but that was very rare, you know, it wasn't like a regular thing.

Speaker 1: 19:09

It was like when I was four, then years later, then years later, it was very long in between.

Speaker 2: 19:16

In your pain in high school was did you feel like God was?

Speaker 1: 19:20

available. I, I hoped that he was, I don't know, I didn't know at the time and I I had a we'll call it a limited theology. I really didn't. Um, I had basically no understanding. I mean, I had like concepts from stories, like you know, about david David and um, like King David, you know, and, uh, you know different things about that happened in Jesus's ministry and um, but it was very, very limited and um, uh, I just I just remember being just frustrated about it and I had, um, there were a couple of kids at my school that I remember were were, um, just impressively outspoken Christians and it wasn't, they weren't obnoxious at all.

Speaker 1: 20:16

Um, they were really encouraging and I just remember they were always so positive and, like, no matter what happened, they were always so positive and, uh, like, no matter what happened, they were always very positive people and I admired that, because I was not a positive person at all and, uh, I think that, um, in that regard, I hoped that they were right, like the things that they claimed and things like that, because they weren't like, they weren't judgmental people.

Speaker 1: 20:42

In fact, it was the, it was the atheist friends that I had that were very judgmental people, the christians that I knew, even if I weren't necessarily close with them. Like these people, like I don't know what it is, they just care about me and we don't even really agree on a lot of things, but at the same time, it's like I would at least acknowledge that they were probably more right than anybody else, um, and they had some direction. And I know, I know for a fact, that some of them um prayed for me. Um, because you know, later on, uh, when I had, by the time, I'd given my life to the lord, like I remember them, you know, telling me that they had prayed for me back then, like on Facebook, you know online.

Speaker 1: 21:28

So pretty cool.

Speaker 2: 21:30

That is really cool. Yeah, what was so? What was the period between, like that dark time and then when you met the Lord?

Speaker 1: 21:38

Yeah. So my mom and my grandparents really they saw it and I would say definitely my Uncle Phil especially too they saw it as a. They knew that there was a spiritual aspect to it, because in high school there were these really extreme panic attacks that I was having and um, it was just like bizarre, like even the doctors couldn't explain it. There's like there's no reason it would be this extreme, like we don't see panic attacks like this, but that's all we could call it. It was like almost a seizure kind of thing and um, and I remember like everything would go pitch black while it was happening. But it wasn't like a blood flow thing, it wasn't some medical thing, like there was a, it was legitimately a spiritual thing.

Speaker 1: 22:36

And I think, um, uh, I just remember like talking with my uncle phil about it and talking with um my mom about it and talking with um my mom about it and um, I appreciated their support and stuff and um, but it was all just overwhelming to me and I was just like really struggling. Like I remember I at one point I had this like weird obsession around mistakes and it was like debilitating obsession with mistakes, and so I was at um, I thought I was doing fairly stable. You know wasn't in the hospital, you know wasn't in a mental hospital.

Speaker 1: 23:16

I'm doing great you know, yeah, so and I go to the school for computer science and it was, like you know, halfway across the country and I, um, yeah, I I was doing well academically, which was cool because I, you know, younger, I was straight a's like smart, and then I stopped caring about school. So, as like a part of my questioning authority thing, I stopped doing homework and stuff like that and it was arguing with the teachers and stuff and um, so I mean it was good that I got to go to a university and and.

Speaker 1: 23:54

I even got a scholarship. I didn't even apply for Cause I had a high aptitude for computer science, which was nice to have, um and I, so I'm at this school for nuclear science doing well academically, and then suddenly one night, like I had this like horrible panic attack again, and so my roommates didn't know what was going on. So they called 9-1-1 because they're like, I don't know he's freaking out, we don't know what's going on, you know. And um, so end up at the hospital there and, uh, you know, thousands of miles from home and just confused about what even happened, and uh, so that keeps happening like over and over and over, I don't even know how many times.

Speaker 1: 24:41

While I was there, um, just a two and a half months, I was in college for two and a half months and a lot of that time was getting 911 called on me and, um, you know, at at a certain point, like, even though I was doing so well academically, um, you know, when the second sprint of the quarter started, I wasn't even at the school.

Speaker 1: 25:08

They had moved me to a psychiatric hall at one of the hospitals there, you know. And so when I got back after that, after I got discharged, you know I had to, like have certain appointments mandatory in order to make sure that there wasn't worse things going on, and um, and it was. It was while I was there that, um, I experienced what was probably another miracle, um, besides, just like hearing from God. It was, um. So, of all the volatile medications I was on, um, one of them, uh, they have to monitor very closely and you know there's all these different um blood levels. They have to see and everything, and so at this point, I was very underweight. Like I'm the same height, I am now about six feet. Um, I was that tall when I was in eighth grade and I stopped growing after that cause I wasn't eating food, and that was probably a demonic thing too.

Speaker 1: 26:03

But you know, I didn't have a concept of that really at the time besides, like my suspicions, with all the satanist stuff um and so um, uh, it was.

Speaker 1: 26:16

I was 104 pounds and it was a really really rough situation because it's like, well, how are you going to get nutrition to be able to even think clearly at that point, you know, but I just couldn't eat. Like when I would eat, either my throat would close up or if I could eat, I would suddenly be just like exhausted after eating, like have to go take a nap.

Speaker 1: 26:38

Because, you know you eat to get energy, but I would feel less energy when I would eat, so I hated eating and, um, anyway. So the reason that's relevant is because if you're 104 pounds and you're taking all these medications, it's very difficult to keep a safe blood level. It's very easy to get to a toxic point. So they have to watch that closely, and they did. But when I went out for school, suddenly it was much worse and we didn't know that right away.

Speaker 1: 27:08

But at one point, when I was on that psychiatric hall at that hospital because you know, I kept ending up in the ambulance and there were just problems, I kept getting dehydrated and having these panic attacks where everything would go black and I'd, you know, be shaking on the floor, screaming, you know, and um, you know, for like 30 minutes straight kind of thing, 45 minutes straight, and uh, turns out, um, so, so this one morning there, uh, the nurse comes in to wake me up, to go to something that they had programmed, and I stand up and I'm all dizzy and and the he's like, the nurse is like, are you okay? Like here, um, hold my arm and I'll help you walk, and I'm like no, I'm, I'm, I'm cool. And then I fall down on my face like chip my teeth and everything. You don't even put your arms out to like stop yourself. It's funny, I've never had that reflex, even when I was a kid, and I fell down, I would just fall.

Speaker 2: 28:10

Just like a pillar. Yeah, yeah, wow.

Speaker 1: 28:13

So I'm there like wondering what is going on, you know, with blood coming out of my face and everything, and and then, uh, you know, and now my teeth are messed up, so like, even now, like some of this is fake, um in my teeth, uh, the um. And so then the, the psychiatrist on the hall there, um, calls me into his office later that morning and he's like are you, are you doing? Okay, you know, and he was like mad. I don't know what he was so angry about. I could tell he wasn't mad at me, but he's like, you know, he's like you, okay, because I've got some stuff I need to share with you.

Speaker 1: 28:49

And he was so mad it was, it was almost comical because here's this like doctor anyway. So he he's like I want you to look at this book that I have on my shelf here, and it's like huge, you know, like huge. I'm like, okay, you know, and he's like that's the encyclopedia of lithium side effects. And I'm like, okay, that's pretty intense, you know. And he's like, yeah, so I want you to look at this chart. So he had this like printout of these different numbers and he highlighted two of the numbers. I'm like, okay, and he shows the blood level of that in my, in my bloodstream, and this was from 24 hours, you know, after my last dose, um, and I'm like okay, and then he, and then the other number. He's like what do you think that number is? I'm like okay.

Speaker 1: 29:41

And then he and then the other number. He's like what do you think that number is? I'm like, I don't know, is that from yesterday? He said that's the toxic limit. That's where you'll die If your blood level is at that level. And I was like, but mine's higher than that, you know, this is like a day later, you know. And he's like yeah, exactly, I don't even know why you're alive, you know so, uh, that's why he was so mad, because he's like you're, you're way over prescribed this. He's like you don't need to be having nearly this much medication. You probably shouldn't even be on this medication oh wow.

Speaker 2: 30:12

So so, like just for clarity, you're saying like you were given too much and your blood level was beyond the point where you should have survived right, yeah, like far beyond it wow, it wasn't even that close yeah, and this was, and again, this is the the readings 24 hours over 24 hours, after my last dose wow you know.

Speaker 1: 30:37

So it's like on the regular dose each day. What the heck was it at?

Speaker 1: 30:40

no wonder I was having problems you know, wow so david, like, help me understand, you're halfway from your family, halfway across the country from your family. Yeah, are you just managing all of this on your own, with the help of like school physicians? So, uh, yeah, so I had at the school this advocate that I would meet with every single day, who's like kind of like a counselor, but also kind of like an advisor, he's kind of both, and he would meet with me and make sure I was doing OK, which usually wasn't the case, you know, usually I was not doing OK, but they were just trying to help. And, uh, but, yeah, I mean so, um, my mom, at that point it was when I was down on that psychiatric hall at a nearby hospital um, my mom flew out there and she's like, I can't remember who it was, but there was some like american general, american general, you know in history, uh, who, like, even though he was such a brilliant, you know, general and affected the tides of American history, you know, when he was in college, he, he had to, like his mom had to move in there to help him, like get through a period in his life, and so she told me that story and she's like, even if I have to stay here like I want to help you do this because you're doing really well in school, but I know you're struggling and I want to help you.

Speaker 1: 32:10

You know, wow, and I meant a lot and that's just that's how my mom is, you know, yeah, um, thank god, and so, uh, she was there for the remainder of that quarter and she was even there for Thanksgiving at the school, you know, wow. And then she left a couple of days before I did to come back to North Carolina and, you know, finished the stuff with class and the exams and everything, and I mean I was doing really well. Even despite all this, I was probably number one in my class, if not tied for number one.

Speaker 2: 32:44

Holy cow.

Speaker 1: 32:45

So I mean I was doing well.

Speaker 2: 32:46

With everything going on.

Speaker 1: 32:48

I did well with the projects and um and every, and the whole curriculum was very project focused. So that was in my favor and um, but it was like a lot of time, like it was 40 hours of class a week and um, and then you had homework and then you had, you know, projects that you had to do alongside that. So it was a ridiculous workload. And then I was having all these problems with my health and stuff and but uh, but yeah, so I get home from that first quarter, and so it was, let's see, new Year's Eve that year.

Speaker 1: 33:25

So this was New Year's Eve 2010. I had just made the prototype for my first game and I was ready to go back to school and keep going from there. And my advocate, the guy that I met with just about every day at the school, he called my parents and I didn't know about this um at the time, but he called and I was off I think I was seeing Tron legacy or something you know and uh, anyway, they the staff at the school had a meeting about me, you know, because they were all watching me because they're like man, he's really smart. But boy, is this a mess, you know. And they decided that, even though I was doing so well, they wanted to make sure that I would survive.

Speaker 1: 34:16

More importantly, which you know, I appreciate in retrospect, but at the time, I was really mad um they told my parents that we can't force this because, you know, the school doesn't have that type of control. But we highly recommend that he stays on medical leave right now and it's up to you, but that is our recommendation because he's smart, he's really smart, um, but it's up to you, but that is our recommendation because he's smart, he's really smart, um, but it's he's. He's in a dangerous place.

Speaker 1: 34:47

You know, and so my parents were like that's their recommendation. You know, these are people that you respect, this is what they've decided. And I wasn't for it at all. I was really mad because I'm like, but I'm working so hard, I'm trying so hard and you're taking it away, basically, and so but yeah. So I ended up on medical leave, but I intended on eventually going back. It was just during that time I was like I'm making so much progress so quickly. I'm getting so good at this. I want to make sure that I'm not just doing progress so quickly. I'm getting so good at this. I want to make sure that I'm not just doing nothing, you know.

Speaker 2: 35:23

And.

Speaker 1: 35:23

I also wanted to have something I could kind of latch on to that you know I could where I could give myself a personal challenge to just kind of get better. You know.

Speaker 2: 35:33

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 35:34

So I started, that's when I started making games, like I had made that prototype and I'm like I'm just going to run with this because this is what I want to do anyway. So, um, and that's that's related to another thing that I had heard from God. So in spring of 2010, uh, it was in the middle of a computer programming class that I was taking at the school. Computer programming class that I was taking at the school, um, I got this vision, basically, of a bunch of people outside um together and they were playing these games, playing video games together, and the, the games were basically a method of communicating their life stories to each other.

Speaker 1: 36:21

And, um, and I remember, like you know it's hard to explain, but I remember, like, in in what I was seeing, you know, everyone was uh, it was like this depth of relationship that they were developing that, um, because of playing these games and being able to kind of walk in each other's shoes, that they were just growing closer and and people were like very emotional, you know, um, I don't know it was really interesting. And then, um, so what I heard with that was um, uh, this is what games should be, and um, so from that point, I was just like obsessed with that idea. Um, and you know, I I felt pretty confident that that was um, that wasn't just something that I made up, you know, cause the games I was playing at the time were all competitive games.

Speaker 1: 37:17

It has nothing to do with you know expression and things like that, but uh, yeah. So when I'm on medical leave I basically dive into that and I started, you know, this little personal challenge to make my first game. Um, it was called cool be in search of floyd. It was about two games that I had had in real life when I was younger and so we had adopted them together and they were already kind of old and Floyd was sick and he died like about a year later after we had adopted them, and then after that Colby would just search the house all night. You know, I mean, he changed like so dramatically when floyd died, he just couldn't find him.

Speaker 1: 38:04

You know, he didn't know what was going on because they had been together their whole lives. They were pretty old cats, you know, and he was just confused and but he looked for floyd and like calling for him at night the rest of his life like until the day he died you know, and that's that, like experiencing, that was interesting to me because it's like man, like cats just don't give up, they just keep hoping. You know, even if, like, he didn't even understand that floyd was dead, he didn't, you know, that didn't compute but, it didn't matter, he still missed him and he kept looking for him.

Speaker 1: 38:40

And so anyway. So the my first game was about that. You, you play as cool B and um and you try to it's him trying to find Floyd, and so it's a game about hope, which I really needed at the time. And, um, there were, uh, there were some Bible verses at the time that I was latching onto thanks to my mom and my uncle, Phil, you know, particularly speaking into my life, you know and my grandmother, um, they were really encouraging me and like with the Bible and things like that. And I do remember, while I was at university, uh, my mom brought me this Bible. Um, where it was crazy. When I would hold it, my, my, my head felt quiet, as the way I described it, because everything was so noisy and chaotic and dark, and when I would, I could just physically hold it and everything felt okay. It was crazy.

Speaker 1: 39:41

Wow, so I knew there was something special in that, and so I was diving into that a little bit more. It was still very confusing, very confusing to me. And you know, I had tried a bunch of different churches even in high school, and friends would invite me to different churches and stuff, and but I never, um, either they weren't welcoming in the very beginning, which was always frustrating or they would be welcoming at first, but there were like strings attached and uh, which kind of hurt, you know it just really it.

Speaker 1: 40:16

Yeah, it just felt like it wasn't legitimate care, you know. And so eventually they would get sick of my questions and, you know, not necessarily openly ostracized, but certainly felt that way. So I never really had a place where I'm like, oh yeah, this is my place to go, because people would either get sick of my questions or they just like obviously didn't like me from the get go, get sick of my questions, or they just like obviously didn't like me from the get go. So I was still feeling a little bit alone with that. But obviously I would talk with talk with my mom about different things I was thinking about with God, and I would. I would try to just ask God, you know, um, and sometimes I would hear things other times, not uh and yeah, but uh, during that time.

Speaker 1: 41:01

That time, basically, um, I was making this game and I, and I wanted to make it in my own game engine that I made, you know, and I was making that engine in my own uh, like in a new language that I didn't know yet. So I was learning C sharp along with that Cause I thought that would be an advantageous language to learn Um and yeah, and I ended up finishing that and released that, and so at that point I was, I was already working 17 hours a day, usually seven days a week, and, um, I it was, uh, it was rough you know cause it was uh it was rough, you know, because it was like it was the onset of the workaholism, I guess, because it's like I saw this as a personal challenge where I could heal myself, kind of thing.

Speaker 1: 41:49

It's like, oh, if I can finish this I'll feel better about myself, and that was that was legit. What I thought that's why the goal was so intense for me is because I wanted to feel better about myself and I thought if I could achieve my way out of the pain I'd be okay.

Speaker 1: 42:04

And so that year I, you know, got started getting world records in these different games. And you know I was working like crazy like that. And then I just kept going from there, you know, tried to start growing the company and stuff like that so did it work Over time? Yeah, over time. The company did, but I mean did the pain?

Speaker 2: 42:24

go away? Not at all Did the achieving help your pain?

Speaker 1: 42:27

Not at all. In fact, over time it made it worse, you know, and so I was, because it wasn't even like a fleeting feeling, good feeling. It was like you get there and then no feeling at all, and then it's disappointment because it's like darn it I don't feel. In fact, I feel worse now because even with all that, I still don't like it, don't like myself.

Speaker 2: 42:54

And so there wasn't. Yeah, where was so amidst all of that? So what was the point of like, how did you come to know jesus, like in the middle of all of this chaos, like it's so crazy? Yeah, you have these world records. You have, you have all of this success and what people would deem as successful, right, and you still feel so empty, like where? Where was the part where? Yeah, you met like the lord. How did he meet you?

Speaker 1: 43:29

yeah, unfortunately it took a lot more. So I had to get a lot worse because I was. You know, I was trying to be a warrior, I was trying to just push through it all and um the self the self effort, bury all the pain, just fight my way through it.

Speaker 1: 43:46

And, um, to some extent, you know, that drove a lot of ambition and it was very unhealthy ambition, um, very unhealthy, but I, I didn't have a concept of that at the time, um, and so, uh, I was just obsessed with, um, making it all work, and I think in the back of my mind, I justified it by saying that's what God wanted, cause I, it was like this mission, you know, with the games and uh, but that's not legitimately what I was doing, you know, and it was just kind of a lie to myself for years. Um, and I think when, even if you're going a direction that might be something in God's will, if you're not doing it in his way, that's not necessarily going to be very blessed.

Speaker 2: 44:44

Yeah, it was.

Speaker 1: 44:45

It was killing me, you know, and uh, so I, I, I had been 104 pounds and then I was so sedentary in front of the computer all day and eating terrible food. Um, you know, I, I gained a lot of weight and I was on different medication at this point and some of these medications, like, can cause diabetes and things like that. And so I got to a point where one of my doctors was like hey, one of your levels is pre-diabetic, you really need to be careful here. We're probably going to have to transition you off of this. And I hated doing the transitions because that that would happen every once in a while when you're on the, you know, cocktail of different medications that are already so volatile on their own, like all the interactions, that just the withdrawals going between them Cause it takes, you know, it's usually like a nine month taper going between and you, I mean, it was terrible for me.

Speaker 1: 45:39

I had the worst withdrawal one. One time I was switching between a couple and, um, I had like this three month period where it felt like I had a really high fever, you know, but I had no fever, but that's what it felt like. And so then I'm in front of my computer for 17 hours a day and feeling like that with the migraines, and it was. It was hell, man, and the panic attacks.

Speaker 1: 46:00

You know that was still happening, um, but I mean, you know my, my entire obsession at that point, like I was still playing violin, but I was just so obsessed with just making the making Solanum as succeed, just forcing it. You know, um and um and uh, so I just poured everything into that and um, so by let's see, by 2015. Um, uh, there were. So I owned 100 of the company and there was a guy at one of the conferences that talked with one of my mentors and I had some wonderful mentors, thank God, because they were, even though they were, you know, helping me with the stuff with the business that was causing me a lot of issues, health wise, you know, they were at least encouraging me and speaking positively and also trying to help me from just making it all about work hours all the time. He was talking with the guy at a conference and then the guy wanted to invest in the company. I'm like, okay, well, what is he talking about? And my mentor is like, okay, well, so with this he would invest this much and he would want this much in return. I'm like, okay, well, let me think for a second.

Speaker 1: 47:31

And I wasn't thinking about it, I wasn't calculating, I was trying to see what it felt like and because it was valuing the company at $5 million and I was only a few years in, you know and I'm like I know, and the number looked nice, and then I'm just like I felt nothing. So I was like I don't think this is what God wants. That's what I thought to myself. And so I told my mentor I'm like no, and he's like David, you really need to consider this, this is a really good deal. And I was just like no, I don't like it.

Speaker 1: 48:05

And yeah, it was rough, because then we did a launch that was just an absolute disaster, like it wasn't. Even a year later we did this big launch for a new game and it was an absolute disaster. And obviously, like, at at that point, if I had gone back to the guy, he wouldn't have invested anything like, let alone that much money. And so, um, I really regretted that bad um and I remember like not feeling anything when I was given that option, but I'm just like I can't, I just can't do it. You know I can't do it.

Speaker 2: 48:39

You know I can't do it, um, but I regret it. Do you look back on that now, and where do you stand now on looking back?

Speaker 1: 48:44

Um, generally I look back on it and you know I'm like well, it worked out, okay, Cause that continuing down that path would have just been kind of a confirmation of the way I was living and that wouldn't have been good, you know, Um, and it also would have put me in a place where, like you know, you never know what, like how everything gets routed out. But the way I look at it now is like, how would I have met Stephanie if I had continued down that path, Like, if I had gotten so much success at that point financially, I may not have met her, I may not have been in a place where that would have worked out. And so it's like I would much rather be married to her than, um, than with all all that quote unquote success, you know, Uh, but there there are still times where I'm like man, that would have been a really nice trajectory, you know.

Speaker 1: 49:36

So, but yeah, so, anyway, uh, yeah, yeah. So that that game launch really, uh, hit me hard and um, at that point I had been like I was, I was really struggling still, but I was hiding it because I didn't want any of my teammates to be concerned about me. So, um, but it was like, you know, a lot of sleep, deprivation, um, just really bad food, and you know, obviously my values were really out of whack. It was like all work and nothing else mattered, you know, and um, and it wasn't really productive, because even in games, where it's so competitive and it, you know, it does take a lot of time at different points, um, that wasn't why I was working so hard. I was working so hard because I hated myself and I hated my life and I wanted to fight out of that the only way I knew how, which was chasing achievements, and this is what I thought I was able to do. So, cause none of the other achievements had helped. It had just made it an even bigger hole or made the whole field even deeper. So, um, yeah, so then, uh, and then it was a few months after that, um, when that was, I mean, it's hard to say my life was already not in a great place, but my life really turned upside down.

Speaker 1: 51:00

So it was February 13th 2016. Um, that was, uh, that was the day my brother killed himself. So my older brother, mitchell, um, and uh that. So I was at a convention for the company and you know, we were showing off a game and stuff, and I had gone to lunch, um, to get pizzas for everybody. And then I was going to come back to the convention hall and, uh, one of my teammates calls me and he's like David, you need to come back right now.

Speaker 1: 51:38

And I was like dude, like they're making the pizzas right now. I'll be back in a few minutes, what's going on? Because I thought like something was going on with a computer or something. And he's like no, your aunt's here, you need to come back. And one of my other teammates, his aunt, was supposed to be coming that day just to like visit and see like what he was doing and his little, his career and stuff. And I was like nah, it's probably his aunt man, and he's like he. And then he put my aunt on the phone. I'm like what are you? Why are you there? And she's like you need to come back right now. And I was like, well, can it wait? She's like no, you need to come back now. This is important.

Speaker 1: 52:17

So I thought something was going on with my dad because he had been diagnosed with cll, the chronic lymphoid leukemia, a few years before that and um, and he was doing okay. But it was like maybe something's going on with that. And so I go back and everybody on the team just looks like you know, something had happened. And I'm like man, I don't know, he's in the hospital or something. So we're walking out of the convention center. Because my my team was like we can handle this. Just just go, david, you know, and uh, we get in the car and my aunt's, like um, your mom and dad are at the hospital. They found mitchell in a pond and um, and I knew that, yeah, I mean, I knew he was gone and I knew it was suicide and I mean you know it was.

Speaker 1: 53:11

It was strange for me because, like you know, I I had tried killing myself several times before that and and I didn't finish, I didn't complete it, like people say, and then he did. I just remember one time when I was in the hospital in 2008, and I was stuck there for weeks and he came to visit me and he had always been the one that got me into games originally, and he was the reason that I wanted to start playing music, because he was playing music and, uh, you know, when we were little kids, we didn't get along, we fought all the time, but it was still like something where we would, we would play games together and he was like a natural at games. I was not. I had to try really hard to to learn the games and get good at them and um, but yeah, it was just like so weird, like um, cause there were, I was realizing that everything in my life was connected to him and um and I, you know, we get to the hospital and uh, go, they take me into the family room, you know, and then everybody's there and my parents were like he's gone and um, and I remember physically feeling this, like huge weight fall on my shoulders, like like physically feeling it, like somebody put a big backpack on my shoulders and um, and I didn't cry right away, I just felt like numb and, you know, devastated, but like numb, and it was strange and and I was trying I think I was just trying to stay strong, you know, and I also think that my brain was kind of defending itself.

Speaker 1: 54:58

It's like that's too much to handle right now. You're already under a lot of stress, you know, and uh, I got to see his body and that was haunting still. And then, uh, yeah, and then I, I, um, went home and I was at my grandparents' house and I explained what happened to my grandfather, cause I had her, you know, it was really close with him and um, it was just confusing to him, like he just could not, he couldn't accept it, I think at first, um and uh, yeah, so I, I was, I didn't go back to work right away and three days later, you know, we were just doing, everyone was doing very badly, we were not handling anything well and we weren't eating, sleeping. It was just like. It was like the world was over kind of thing. It was like the world was over kind of thing.

Speaker 1: 55:59

And, um, I just remember going to the grocery store to get something, I think going to Walmart for something, from my parents, cause they, you know, they couldn't do anything and you know all of us could barely function, but I could function better.

Speaker 1: 56:18

And I just remember, like in the car, um, just the floodgates opened, it was raining and I just remember I would, I had to pull over. I started just sobbing and crying so hard, um, because it was like I was never gonna see him again, and just like how, like just trying to wrap my mind around like you, you know, I've felt so much pain that I tried killing myself and just trying to wrap my mind around the pain that he felt, and like he just gave up and and like, uh, it was just such a deep loss, just such a deep permanency to it. Um, you know, cause I, I had had other people close to me had died, but this was the first suicide you know, other than my own attempts and um, and also I mean it sounds weird, but at the time it's like well, now I'm seeing how this has just destroyed my whole family, like everyone is just like wisps.

Speaker 1: 57:30

Now we're not even like human and um, I just couldn't like picture any of us even smiling again like that's how dark it was and um. And then it was like, well, now, I can't do that, I don't even have that option now. And it was like, well, now I can't do that, I don't even have that option now. And it was frustrating because it's like, well, now I'm trapped in this horrible life.

Speaker 1: 57:44

It's because you know the effect it has on others now, right, and so it's like I couldn't even do that, because it's like then it would just be a chain reaction, like the whole family was just like I said. We were almost not human anymore. It was so sad and just purely it was. We were all almost not human anymore. It was so sad and just purely, it was just pure sadness.

Speaker 1: 58:06

You, know all the time, or anger, yeah, um, anger at each other, like it was just crazy and chaotic and horrible. And so during that time, uh, you know it silly, but it's like, well, I don't have that escape route anymore. So my concept was I don't have a way to handle this much pain. I'm already, I was already bad enough before. I have no way out of this. So what I'm going to do is just stress myself out as much as I can with work so that I don't have to feel this because this, because the stress will be better than the emotional pain. And so that's what I did. And, um, it was like self-sabotaging on purpose, basically, and it was insane, but it made sense at the time to me. And, um, I was just like eating terrible food on purpose, just like McDonald's all the time, and, you know, just just overworking, not sleeping, like it was a form of self-harm, I think, but anyway. And then I would go to this survivors group survivors of suicide group where that was like my one time during the week, about an hour, where I would do what people call touching the pain, and that was the only time during the week. Um, I mean, I would play the violin, but even with that, I would try to not cry, you know, um, yeah, but it was just a really dark time and was struggling with the company because we weren't making any money. The game had failed like that. That new release just a few months before his death it was, it was a mess and uh, um.

Speaker 1: 59:53

So then, um, in a couple of years later, in 2018, I was visiting, um, my uncle Phil and my aunt Sarah down in Georgia, cause, you know, phil was. He was like, as long as I can remember, he was speaking, speaking life into my life, cause he's a Christian, and um, yeah, he was always just very passionate about it and very just matter of fact about things, and I knew that he loved me and he was actually my first mentor in business too, you know. So I at least had some kind of concept of how God fit into business and everything, but he knew that I was in a bad place, like very bad place, and so, anyway, he invited me down just to stay with them for a few days and just, um, if I had to work, then fine, but just to talk with them, you know, cause, I mean they were struggling too, I mean it was just hard.

Speaker 1: 1:00:49

They lost their nephew that they loved and and so, while I was there, my cousin Sophie, uh she was driving me to their house at one point Cause they live pretty close to to there and and in the car, just out of the blue, she's like David, you need to find a new church. And I'm like, yeah, okay, You're right, yeah. And so when I got back home, uh, this was in September 2018. Why did she say that? No idea, she doesn't even remember saying it, but I mean, she's a Christian and she knew I was in a bad place, but she just said it out of the blue. Did she know anything about your church that you were going to, or anything?

Speaker 1: 1:01:30

I wasn't going to a church and she knew that it was like okay, so it's like she knew I had tried a bunch of different places and wasn't happy.

Speaker 1: 1:01:37

but she's like you need to find a new church. So that's what she meant. It's just like keep trying, Gotcha, and so, yeah. So when I got back home, I'm like, yeah, she's right, I'm not going to figure this out on my own. Like even talking with my mom and talking with Phil, like none of this makes sense to me.

Speaker 1: 1:01:59

So I made a list, you know, got online and made a list of places to try and, um, on Antioch's website, antioch Raleigh's website at the time, um, there was a, you know, a lot of churches have a beliefs page, you know, and that one was the best beliefs page, in my opinion. Of all the different churches websites that I had looked at in the area, I was like this is the one that I that I think is the most well-grounded. Um didn't mean I understood everything, but it's like this is one that where I like at least I can connect with this, you know, it seems like it makes sense to me. And um, so that was the first one on my list and it was meeting at carry high school and I had I had been there for the band days before when I was in marching band. So I'm like that's really cool.

Speaker 1: 1:02:48

I like that place, you know, so went there, went to the wrong side of the building and didn't know where I was going and then I finally saw some other cars driving around, so I followed them, parked, walked up the steps and saw Seth Williams and it's funny because he remembers seeing me walking up the steps, you know all awkwardly not knowing where I am and talked with Seth and I felt like it's funny, like you guys know Seth Williams and for me talking with him is like talking with God and man. I felt so much peace just with his smile.

Speaker 1: 1:03:28

Like regardless of what he was saying. I'm like man, this guy is so real, you know. And then I met Caleb Carden and I met Matt Ramsor that first day, carden and I met Matt Ramsor that first day. And uh, and then I went up after the service and everything when they had the prayer time and I got somebody to pray for me. No idea who that was.

Speaker 1: 1:03:49

Um but, uh, I just remember he's like, well, what do you want me to pray for? I'm like I don't know. He's like, well, well, what's going on, you know? And I was like having a hard time, that's all I had to say. And so he's like, okay, well, let me just, let me just you know here for a minute. And so I guess he just like asked god what was going on. And he's like chuckled a little bit so I don't know what he was hearing or saying. But then he started praying for me and, um, I felt, uh, I felt, um, certainly more welcome than I ever had going anywhere else.

Speaker 1: 1:04:29

Um, and uh went out for lunch with some people Like I kept going for you a few weeks after. It says first time was November 18th 2018. So that's my anniversary with Seth Williams. And then, uh, so then, um, I was finally getting questions answered going to life group and it was so much fun because it was like the questions that I thought were so difficult because no one would answer them straight were so easy for these people. It was hilarious. It's like, well, why didn't anybody tell me that before?

Speaker 1: 1:05:02

You know, stuff like that. And so it was exciting because I was like man, this is a whole new world, this is a whole lot deeper than I thought, you know. And it was, it was exhilarating and uh, and I was like yeah, I've got a regular church I go to now. Like you know, maybe I'm a real Christian now.

Speaker 1: 1:05:19

It was funny because there were just so many things I was learning so quickly and then, but I was still like, at the same time, having problems with like fatigue, like my sleep was so screwed up that and I was still on so many different medications, like I would show up at life group and we'd all be sitting there and I'd just be asleep, you know, and I remember matt would pray for me pretty much every single week because he knew he's like this is not normal, like something's going on here, so, um, so, still working a lot and everything. And then it was, uh, I was at GDC, the big game developers conference in California that year. So this was, uh, march 21st 2019. Um, one of my longtime mentors, um, at the time, did something, uh, on the show floor with a whole bunch of people there that you know in our little community, and it it was. It really hurt my feelings deeply and I don't want to. I've already forgiven him, I'm not going to implicate him on anything, but, boy, it really hurt my feelings bad and I was already struggling.

Speaker 1: 1:06:36

I had found, you know, some traction to be able to get answers about spiritual things, but at the same time, I was still in really bad shape and I just was burnt out. I hated what I was doing and I'm like you know what? I'm done with this, I don't want to do this anymore. So I even posted online that I was quitting. Here's the guy running Solanimus games. Is he's quitting? So that means the company's something's going to go on. So, and I was I mean, that was what I had chosen. I was like I'm done, I can't do it anymore. And I remember, like telling my mentors I'm just like I'm, I just can't do it, I'm, I'm spent, you know, mentors, I'm just like I'm, I just can't do it, I'm, I'm spent, you know. And uh, so I I had picked a parking lot in fuquay that I knew was owned by a family, but they people were parking there for free and I was like, well, I can stand out there with an umbrella and take people's payments for parking there, and that was what I was going to do. That was going to be what was your plan? That was my plan for my life, you know.

Speaker 1: 1:07:45

And so I started, you know, helping my teammates transition on because I cared about them, you know, I didn't want to just leave them behind. So I was helping a little bit with that, which was hard, it was depressing, but my COO at the time, thankfully, was a Christian and, uh, he spoke into my life, um, like that same day. You know cause I was. I was in bad shape, like we were still there in California, but he was, yeah, he, he, he was very encouraging, but he's like, at the same time, you know, if you need to do this for your health, I care more about you as a brother than I care about you as my boss, you know, and that meant a lot to me, um, uh, but anyway, so, yeah, so I was quitting everything and getting getting out of whatever contracts we had going on, and I just remember I was staying at my grandmother's house because my grandfather had died by that point and she wasn't doing well. That was a difficult loss, especially after just losing Mitchell, and her house was really close to my office. So it worked out well, even though sometimes I would sleep at the office. It, you know, it was just a way that we could have a little bit more company together, and so, anyway, um, I was, I got back home after a really just emotionally difficult day at work in particular, and I sat, I was sitting there on the bed and on my shelf, um, was my.

Speaker 1: 1:09:26

So I'm sitting there on the bed and I'm just like I don't want to live like this anymore. You know, I wasn't particularly excited about my parking lot ambitions, and so so I was just like this, this sucks, you know. And uh, on my shelf I had my huge box of pills for that week, cause I, you know I was very careful to not miss a dose, cause I knew what happened when I did like if I did miss a dose. It was so dangerous, you know, have a migraine, get a seizure, like it was horrible. So there's that. There was my little $5 Bible I had gotten, and then my, uh, um, I had this book called if you want to walk on water, you've got to get out of the boat that I had gotten at the thrift store for like 50 cents, cause I thought the title was funny and it was just there on my shelf.

Speaker 1: 1:10:18

And I'm like, and I hadn't read the book, it was just there, you know.

Speaker 2: 1:10:22

And I'm like wow, okay, well, the title is almost enough, though, to just intrigue you.

Speaker 1: 1:10:28

Right, right and so and so I was like so I, I looked at that and I'm like, okay, well, if you're God, and if you're who you say you are and who all these people at Antioch say you are, then you can get me out of this. And so I was like I'm not going to even, I'm not going to live like this anymore, I'm just going to stop. And so, um, I stopped all the medications, cold Turkey, um, because I saw that as my boat, you know that I wanted to step out of. And uh, and that was it. I was like you know what? I know, I'm probably going to die if I do this, but I'm just giving this to you and you're going to have to make something happen, cause I obviously cannot make this work. I can't make my life work, you know.

Speaker 1: 1:11:18

And so, um, that night, uh, I didn't take my dose of any of the things. And then the next morning I was like scared to death. I'm like, oh no, what's going to happen? You know they're going to find the president under, like dead, under his desk, you know. And, uh, it just um, yeah, it was terrifying, but I was like you know what I mean? I'd rather leave it up to him, if this is all right, if what I'm hearing is all real, then I'd rather leave it up to him than leave it up to me, because I've just failed the whole time. You know, and sure enough, like as the days went on, I had no withdrawal symptoms at all, like at all. And then, a few months later, you know, seth baptized me. That was June 2nd 2019.

Speaker 2: 1:12:08

Wow.

Speaker 1: 1:12:09

Never did get any withdrawal symptoms.

Speaker 2: 1:12:11

Wow.

Speaker 1: 1:12:12

And all the side effects just slowly, just faded away, like I was eating the same terrible food, but I was suddenly like losing weight and, um, I was feeling a lot better, I was sleeping better. You know, I was actually happy.

Speaker 2: 1:12:26

It was wild.

Speaker 1: 1:12:27

And I remember the day that I got baptized. Uh, we went out some of the people church, we, we went out and got pizza and I remember, like driving to the pizza place, my shoulders felt so light, you know, and it's this feeling that I I'll just never forget, like um cause it was. It was the transition from when I was in the family room the day my brother died, that weight that I fell on my shoulders. And then from my baptism. It was gone.

Speaker 1: 1:12:58

And it was a remarkable difference, cause it's like it was heavy, it physically felt heavy, you know, and then it was light and that was awesome.

Speaker 2: 1:13:07

So so, yeah, what an amazing wow.

Speaker 1: 1:13:12

Do you feel like?

Speaker 1: 1:13:13

deliverance was ever a part of your experience? Um, yeah, I think so, and I think that, from my experience anyway, I think that deliverance can be granular too. I do think that there's still not demonic possession. There's still not demonic possession, but there's still influence that the enemy can have over someone's life if they allow it, even if you're a born-again Christian, and I think that's still a theologically gray area for most people. But from my experience, that definitely seems consistent and, um, I think, even since there, you know, life has not been easy since then and there has still been warfare, like spiritual warfare in my life, um, at an extreme level, you know, even since then, um, since becoming, you know, I would say becoming a Christian, not just like calling myself one, you know.

Speaker 2: 1:14:24

Right.

Speaker 1: 1:14:26

Actively pursuing daily walk with Jesus. Yeah, yeah, from that moment, yeah and being able to talk with him every day instead of every few years, kind of thing.

Speaker 2: 1:14:36

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:14:38

Yeah, yeah, man, every few years, kind of thing like yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, man, did you ever pursue discipleship? Yeah, so, um, uh, you know, at first, you know, I was still just meeting with seth and then started meeting with other people, um getting getting discipled and uh, yeah, I mean my eyes were opening to all sorts of things I'd never even considered before or things that I had considered, but I had misconceptions about, you know, and um, you know, especially like the healing stuff was blowing my mind Cause I just didn't have much of a concept of that. And uh, I remember that, um, you know it's like, well, obviously he's healed things with me. I mean, how in the world did he heal my brain? You know, I mean the brain's so complicated. He healed it somehow, you know.

Speaker 1: 1:15:30

And uh, and I mean you know too, there there was um from the, from the uh, when the dose was too high and my blood level was too high when I was in college, you know there was um possible brain damage from that and so I was still having trouble like pronouncing certain words and that went away, you know, um, so it was just, yeah, the miraculous healing just was.

Speaker 1: 1:15:56

It was really exciting to me because it man, there's a lot of implications with that. If that's just this universal thing, then there's so many things that are different in my mind now, but it was just like this depth of involvement or depth of relationship, I guess, between individual people and God. That was just so in my face all of a sudden, cause it's like I felt like I knew him in a way, cause I had talked with him and I had this idea of who he was, even if I didn't understand why I had that idea. And then, um, it's like man, like it's just right there, like he was so close to me at all times, kind of thing. And, um, yeah, but I mean good, moving on from there, the challenges were more more about okay, not going back to Egypt, kind of concept. And and, uh, I think that, um, and I think that I'm still on a journey of that Like I took a sabbatical last year that just ended recently and back to work with, like in my marriage and my the relationship that I had with work and even with, like Christian works, um, I found to be still really deeply flawed and coming from a bad, basically a bad place in my heart where I was trying to keep things still from God and not let him heal things. And you know, that was something that I found, you know, through people discipling me, um, and also through just prayer itself and hearing things God was saying to me, trying to teach me. And, uh, it was just like, well, these things don't add up though, you know, and um, you know, I I had, uh, I had met Stephanie and um, you know, it was still still going to Antioch and um, but things were seeming much brighter. And then, um, I was really, I was really really scared to propose to her Like I had been praying for her for years.

Speaker 1: 1:18:19

At that point, I'd actually started praying daily for um, stephanie I didn't know her name was Stephanie, but I had all these like specific prayers that I had every day with God, um, for years, um, and it wasn't like this deep relational thing with God. Honestly, I saw it as a challenge to God, which probably isn't a good thing. You know, don't, don't test the Lord, your God, but boy, I was testing him hard. I'm like, okay, well, if you can do anything, if you're sovereign, then how about this kind of person? You know, for me and boy, that was that hopeless, you know cause?

Speaker 1: 1:18:56

I man, I was, I was not in a great place, I had no business being in a relationship and that's I mean, that's legitimately how I saw it. So it's like, man, if this person is real, then that's going to be a big deal. So, anyway, it was thousands of prayers. Every single one of those is 100 percent Stephanie, and she's a very unique person. So, um, yeah, a lot of those times were definitely a double-minded prayers where I'm like, yeah, this is not ever going to happen, you know.

Speaker 1: 1:19:27

So, but yeah, so I met her and that was very encouraging. And, uh, the proposal was scary, but I did it because I thought she was going to say no. The proposal was scary but I did it because I thought she was going to say no, but I felt like the Lord was encouraging me to ask her anyway. And I'm like, well, that's crazy, you know, because this is way too fast. You know, we were like three months in. We'd only known each other for a few months before that too. And then, yeah, but it's like, ok, well, I'll ask her and at least she'll feel loved, you know, but this is going to be really humiliating and you're going to have to help me get through this, you know. And then she said yes, so that was so.

Speaker 2: 1:20:07

that was that was wild.

Speaker 1: 1:20:10

You were so ready for the no, I was ready for the no man and I almost didn't do it, um, but yeah, like that day I was like, okay, at least you'll feel loved and this will just be a thing between me and god once again, you know he'll help me get through life, you know but, he had more in mind than just getting through life.

Speaker 2: 1:20:29

So we, we. We have about five or less minutes left. Yeah, um, I would like to know in your own words how would you describe your relationship with god before your brother's death and how would you describe who god is to you now?

Speaker 1: 1:20:58

Um, yeah, before before we lost Mitchell, um, I saw God as um, uh, certainly distant, I guess. Um, maybe not always distant, but generally far away. Um, generally far away, um, somewhat unreachable, certainly not able to be understood. Um and uh, yeah, I mean it's, it's more vague, I think, but I I did think that, I did think that he loved me, but I didn't think it was the thing where it's like, well, I know that you love me and you don't desire to have horrible things happen, but it's like, you know, I don't understand the point behind all. I mean it's uh, I mean, you know, pretty close with my wife, but that's nothing like the closeness with him.

Speaker 1: 1:22:07

I mean it's uh, overwhelming close closeness and um, yeah, just the intimacy with the creator of the universe, uh, never gonna really wrap my mind around that and I'm I'm glad about that. I like the mystery. I don't like all mysteries, but I'm generally very much like I want there to be a mystery there. I don't want to know all of the parts, like sometimes the mystery is just beautiful to me and um, and I I really take, I take a lot of peace and I have to remind myself of it as consciously, you know still but I take a lot of peace in the fact that only he is god and nobody else is god and that he never changes yeah and that he's infinite and those things, and then he was uncreated.

Speaker 1: 1:23:01

That's part of him being infinite, I feel like.

Speaker 1: 1:23:02

But like everything else was created and he was uncreated, like there's so many things that nothing else and no one else can be like him, because there's so many things that only he is like that yeah only he is uncreated, unchanging, infinite, like and uh, yeah, I'm just kind of in awe from day to day and um, you know, through whatever struggles, go on like he does not change, and and um, that's something that I think, for all of eternity we'll be trying to wrap our minds around that, which I think will be fun, because we'll never be able to wrap our minds around it. Very true.

Speaker 2: 1:23:52

David Klingler. Thanks for being here, man, thanks for sharing your story. It's a privilege to be able to hear it. Yeah, love your story. Thanks, yeah, thank you.