Speaker 1: 0:00

Hey everyone, this is Chris and Ryan from the Uncommon Path podcast.

Speaker 1: 0:04

We're coming up on the end of our first season and we want to hear from you, Whether you're on Spotify or Apple podcasts. You should see a send us a message button. This is an easy way you can text the podcast. We'd love to hear feedback on how this first season of episodes ministered to you or to a loved one. What are your favorite things about the podcast? What are maybe some not so favorite things about the podcast? What are maybe some not so favorite things about the podcast?

Speaker 2: 0:27

Our mission is to bring to light the countless stories of God's faithfulness and power at work in his body and in his church. Is there anyone whose story you think should be heard? Is there anyone you think we should interview? All these questions and anything else you can think of we want to hear? So be sure to text the podcast directly from the home screen of wherever you listen to us from.

Speaker 1: 0:49

We'll see you on the next Rabbit Trail.

Speaker 2: 0:58

Welcome to the Uncommon Path where we get a front row seat to what God is doing. I'm your host, ryan Medlin. With me is my co-host, christopher Flowers. Hello. His hairstyle always looks like a model. It looks incredible. He just gave us some Americanos and they're quite delicious. They're quite delicious and, of course, okay.

Speaker 1: 1:26

That was the saucer of the my espresso.

Speaker 2: 1:30

And the background magic is happening by Warren Bristol, who has so many muscles you can't even see his face. Today we have Holly Haas joining us. We are super excited to have you. Thank you for coming.

Speaker 4: 1:47

Thanks for the invitation. It's great to be here.

Speaker 2: 1:49

Yeah, you have 27 years of experience in ministry. Yes, your husband, andrew, has about that same amount, correct? That is correct. So between both of you, you have 54 years of ministry under your belt, which is insane.

Speaker 1: 2:12

Good math, by the way.

Speaker 2: 2:14

Math was a strong suit in my homeschool history, I've already kind of shared the vision behind this. But what we're looking for is who is Holly Haas? What is she about? Um, we really want to go down kind of anywhere the Lord wants to camp out on, but we want to know where were some pivotal transitions for you with the Lord? Um, what were some moments um, they can include miracles or just light bulb moments where the Lord taught you some incredible lessons? Um, we can camp out on ministry stuff where you're passionate about maybe later on, but we, what we really want to know is how did it all began with the Lord, your journey with the Lord, what was the transformation like to getting into ministry? What was doing ministry like, and doing it alongside the Lord? And then, what has God been doing the last five, 10 years, and what is he highlighting for the future? So, to start us off, I would love to put you on the spot and ask you a question. Do I have permission to ask the question?

Speaker 4: 3:31

definitely, okay, definitely no is always an acceptable answer you know, but, I mean, I might just say nope nope

Speaker 2: 3:38

but you can ask no. All right, share a story with us that we will never forget about you.

Speaker 4: 3:49

That you would never forget.

Speaker 1: 3:53

And we're very forgetful, so this better be good.

Speaker 4: 3:56

Right right.

Speaker 1: 3:57

Well, I feel like you know.

Speaker 4: 3:59

I'm in my later 40s now and I feel like you know I've tamed down quite a bit from who I was in my 20s and 30s and some of that is just you know life or wisdom. You know what I'm saying and that realm I'm not sure which, but always loved. You know practical jokes playing pranks on people. Oh great and all sorts of stuff. What was one of the most epic practical jokes you everanks?

Speaker 2: 4:25

on people, oh great, and all, all sorts of stuff.

Speaker 4: 4:26

What was one of the most epic practical jokes you ever played on someone well, I mean, you know the, the ability to gather your whole floor in college together to play a prank on another floor. You know that just doesn't always happen, do you know? I'm saying people that don't know anything about. You know, like, and I'd be handing out like pipe wrenches and saying, okay, you're going to do this and take the shower heads off and you're going to do this and do this, and you're going to put this in here and do this here, and you know, but to gather the whole floor into something to that event, to that extent, um, and then just to go to bed and sleep, well, while everybody else figures it out in the morning, you know.

Speaker 4: 5:10

But you know folks that are there like, like I always had a toolbox with me and stuff like that, and so it was just like, oh well, we could do the x, y and z, and it's just outside of the realm of what would normally happen in a woman's dorm at moody you know at moody bible college at moody bible institute.

Speaker 4: 5:28

So it's always like, well, where's the line where expulsion is and where can we go and yet have camaraderie and build, team build on our floor. You know what I'm saying. It was all about you know that team, that's all.

Speaker 4: 5:40

Team building you and at the same time, just causing havoc on other floors and then also, just you know, being overseas and connecting with different missionary kids, mks, and just being like man you guys are living overseas here you need some experience in how to roll the toilet paper the correct way if you're going to teepee somebody's house or fork a yard, and just you know what I'm saying. And just teaching some of the MKs some of those things that they're not going to tp somebody's house or fork a yard, and just you know what I'm saying and just teaching some of the mks some of those things that they're not going to get when because they're overseas, but taking that opportunity to teach that to them in the moment there, um yeah just taking all, taking all the opportunities and yeah wow, so that's incredible.

Speaker 2: 6:22

I like that that's really cool.

Speaker 1: 6:24

It's one thing to play.

Speaker 2: 6:25

I like that. That's really cool.

Speaker 1: 6:26

It's one thing to play a prank like that we did that all the time at NC State but Moody Bible Institute Women's dorm.

Speaker 4: 6:37

Women's dorm. Yeah, I went to Moody and I mean we're talking, you know, saran wrapping the toilets, vaseline-ing the toilet seats, locking the doors. So by the time somebody gets in you've got multiple layers of stuff going on.

Speaker 1: 6:48

What is that you gotta? Tell me what a vaseline toilet seat is what is that what I've never heard.

Speaker 2: 6:55

What is a?

Speaker 4: 6:55

vaseline toilet seat.

Speaker 1: 6:56

You just put vaseline on the toilet seat, but you saran wrapped underneath the toilet seat because women, we sit on the toilet I know the saran wrap trick, yeah, but by the time you get in because you have to go under the door to get in.

Speaker 4: 7:09

you don't think about anything else, and so it's all a matter of what's the decoy and then what's the actual.

Speaker 2: 7:17

So you lock it from inside, so people have to crawl underneath this doll to use the bathroom. It's saran wrapped, so when you do your business it's going everywhere and there's vaseline on the seat, like those wow that wow that's like the level of thought to be like.

Speaker 4: 7:36

This is the decoy prank they'll never think about layer two will go unnoticed because that layer one is so obvious. Right.

Speaker 1: 7:45

That's a unique mind to think about that.

Speaker 4: 7:49

That's a bored mind. That's a bored mind that needs some direction and something to put your mind to. So that's yes.

Speaker 1: 7:58

Okay.

Speaker 4: 7:59

I am so. Will you remember?

Speaker 1: 8:01

that I will remember that.

Speaker 2: 8:06

That's incredible.

Speaker 4: 8:06

Oh my gosh have you ever played a prank on your husband? I have not.

Speaker 2: 8:12

Is Andrew not that type of person?

Speaker 4: 8:17

No, but there's a term.

Speaker 2: 8:20

There's a crude term. We can edit anything out of here.

Speaker 4: 8:22

You just don't go to the bathroom where you eat.

Speaker 2: 8:25

Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, and so there you gotta, you know choose wisely, true, true.

Speaker 4: 8:34

You know, I would rather work with my husband on pranks or stuff like that than actually have us be at odds, because that would be catastrophic.

Speaker 4: 8:48

I mean, the man knows fireworks like there is no tomorrow. There was one time we were flying back from south africa and he had forgotten that he bought fireworks and put them in his laptop bag in south africa at some store, forgot that they were in there. He realized that when we were over the Atlantic we fly into DC we'd gone through customs and immigration and you know you have to claim your bags and then kind of like recheck it right there to take your next flight in the US?

Speaker 4: 9:17

And he's like, so which one of our bags has a little more space, a little more room? And I said, well, I think this one over here it was my bag. And he's being all secretive and he's kind of you know, holding something, and I was like, oh, he bought me a gift. It was for my birthday and I was like he got me a gift.

Speaker 4: 9:32

This is awesome and we checked all the bags back in and we're going up the escalator and all of a sudden I'm like, oh my word. I said Andrew, we're talking in these hushed tones because I don't want anyone to hear it and I was like I forgot I had a knife in my pocket, you know, and just because I've always got knives everywhere, and he's like I did something worse. And I said, well, what'd you do? And he's like I just put firecrackers in your suitcase. And you're about to go through customs.

Speaker 4: 10:00

And I was like Andrew, and so we're whispering in these real harsh tones. I said, andrew, what are you doing? How could you do this to me? Because we're just going up the escalator, everybody around us and I'm like I don't want to. You know, set off. You know we're normal.

Speaker 1: 10:11

Everything's cool, we're all good, there's nothing to see here folks just carry on, carry on, yeah, yeah, I'm worried about my toenail clippers exactly he's like I got explosives got you, I got you, covered, babe.

Speaker 4: 10:26

That's incredible yeah.

Speaker 2: 10:28

Oh my gosh, oh man, all right. So take us a little shifting gears. Take us kind of where things started with you and the Lord. Where did your relationship with him start? Was it something that happened in like a moment, or was it more of a transformation that happened over a period of time?

Speaker 4: 10:52

Well, I think you know to fully understand things, I grew up in the church, if you will. My parents were Christians, my grandparents were Christians, my great grandparents were Christians. Mom tells stories of her being pregnant and going into the church and the organ playing and me just having a fit. And she's like you know, because I just didn't like organ music, even in the womb, and so just always grew up in the church. So Christianity was something very familiar to me. But it was when I was 11 years old, on a Wednesday night, after an Iwana which was like a kid's, you know, you learn, you play games.

Speaker 1: 11:28

Oh, I was in Iwana. Yeah, I remember that.

Speaker 4: 11:30

And you're memorizing scripture and you know I mean I was doing it for the points, but I had no idea the impact that was making on my life in the long term you know, long term, you know.

Speaker 4: 11:47

And so it was after it was a Wednesday night after Awana that I came home and I realized that I knew of God, but I didn't know him. I didn't have that personal relationship. Now, I wouldn't have put it in those terms at that age, when I was 11, but that's kind of what was going on. And so I just talked to my mom and I was like how do I become a Christian? Do you know what I'm saying? And and, and I just prayed. But it was at that point that it was Jesus wasn't just like savior of my life. There was a shifting where he was Lord and savior, okay, where even at that age, at 15, I started thinking like Lord, what do you want me to do with my life? What is your involvement in this? You know I'm interested in X. What are you thinking about this? How does can I tell other people about this? Why aren't people telling other people about Jesus? What's happening here? How can I get involved in reaching out and stuff like that? And so that's really at that age.

Speaker 4: 12:44

But what was happening about the same time is that my grandparents had retired early and volunteered with Transworld Radio in their retirement and we had the opportunity to visit them. They spent time on the island of Guam and then on the island of Bonaire and Bonaire is 50 miles north of Venezuela One of the best place to go scuba diving and snorkeling and we had the opportunity to visit them. So at that time, where I accepted the Lord like he became Lord and Savior of my life, we had visited my grandparents and I saw for the first time that, wow, this isn't that. I have to have the right skill set. The question being asked is am I willing to say yes?

Speaker 4: 13:31

Because growing up, we grew up in a Baptist church and the only missionaries I saw coming through were Bible translators and church planners and I was taking everything apart in the house. I was a tomboy. I was, you know, I was playing GI Joe and all sorts of and taking things apart. My mom would hide if she thought the vacuum could be fixed. She would hide it because if I found out it was broken, I'd try to fix it and end up and get most of the way there but end up with a few extra parts and it not being fully fixed. Dad's tools were more in my room than in the garage, and that was just how you were wired.

Speaker 4: 14:09

And that was how I was wired. Yeah, just a curiosity, to figure out how do things work and to build things and troubleshoot them, and all of that. And what I saw was that when I visited my grandparents God needs accountants, it people, engineers. It just blew my mind to seeing like, oh, I have a place in the kingdom, not just that I'm a believer, but I'm part of the Lord's army in that realm, and so that was very important to me because I wanted to be involved in something that was bigger than myself. So it was very clear that I was going two directions early on, um eighth grade, ninth grade, that I was either headed towards the military or I was going into missions to be involved with something bigger than myself, to give myself into something that's bigger than just who I am and what I, what Holly Haas or, at that time, holly Beach could do.

Speaker 2: 15:09

What it's fascinating to me that at age 15, you had you just knew that you wanted to partner with the Lord. Like how, how did well? I mean, obviously it seems like there was a huge foundation for relationship with God, versus you're worshiping this entity that's the creator of the universe and you don't know if there's a relationship there. Like, how did you know there was a relationship between you and the Lord? How is there something deeper there?

Speaker 4: 15:45

You know, back at that time I don't know that I have an actual answer to that, other than what I was feeling was that this is a personal God. This was different than what I was hearing in the services. You know, hearing the word but not experiencing word. And what the what the shift that happened was? I started to experience the lord in different realms, and it's it's taken a long time to put words to that, um, but yeah, I just started to experience him in different ways wow, how.

Speaker 1: 16:22

How was it like you had this moment where you realized God needs accountants and all this stuff? Was that like a big deal? Because you knew you were wired for tinkering and engineering and I could see a kid just being like well, I'm not wired to be a preacher pastor, so how is this going to gonna fit? Was that like a revelatory moment?

Speaker 4: 16:48

it was, and because of the, the church that we were in, you know, women didn't plant churches, women weren't pastors oh yeah so that cut out a whole.

Speaker 1: 16:57

There's a whole another layer and and I barriers- I.

Speaker 4: 17:00

You know I I do a lot of reading. I struggle with reading, you know. So I'm not a I'm not a Bible translator. Yeah, I'm not going to. I love getting into the Greek and the Hebrew, but it doesn't come naturally and that is not going to be my lifelong calling. Do you know what I'm saying? So seeing that, wow, the tinkering that I was doing had a use in the kingdom just blew my mind. I mean, it opened doors that I never. I didn't even realize the doors were there until suddenly they were open and I was like I need to explore this. What is this?

Speaker 1: 17:38

was there a moment where you were like oh, maybe God made me this way.

Speaker 4: 17:45

Yeah, maybe he made me this way and it came to. And I was able to see that more and more as I ended up walking through those different doors, those different invitations overseas and seeing, oh, this unique skill set is opening this door here, that as a woman in this realm, I can speak into this, or, you know, this has given me a cool opportunity to go into that realm.

Speaker 2: 18:15

It almost sounds like you didn't even like I'm like. It doesn't sound like struggling with comparison was a big thing for you. It's almost like you just realized oh, this is a spot for me in the Lord's army, as you put it. Perfect, I'm doing it, whereas man, I find it fascinating because I don't think I'm the only one when I say I'm wired a different way and I see someone else living out what life with God looks like and I'm like well, I guess I don't have what is required or I guess that's not cut out for me. And so, instead of refocusing and saying, oh God, well, where, what is my avenue? I usually have this mentality, that almost self-sabotage of like well, I guess I'm not good enough, or something like that. It sounds like the Lord gave you like grace or something to just like pivot. Oh, okay, this is where I'm going.

Speaker 4: 19:17

Right. I think that a lot of that had to do with the prayers of my grandparents, Because both my brother and I knew in high school Like that we were headed into ministry or we were very open to it to exploring in that realm, and that's just not a common thing.

Speaker 4: 19:36

I mean, I was weighing out a couple of different options and looking into it. Do you know what I'm saying? Looking into various options of do I want to go into the Marine Corps or do I want to be a missionary? You know what I'm saying. It's like, well, where do I want to live and where do I want to die? You know, um, but both of us just had that, I don't know that. Call that that is and when. When Danny and I talk, we're just like what that?

Speaker 1: 20:02

that our experience is not a normal high school experience of just hearing that and having that, that call or those opportunities, I guess were your parents involved in mission stuff, or was it more your grandparents that you were seeing model that?

Speaker 4: 20:18

my grandparents were. My parents were faithful churchgoers and very supportive of missionaries and all of that, um, but my parents were not in ministry. Um, wow, really so, wow, but I, you know, I I would try to take opportunities when missionaries would come to our church to try to be there to listen to them, take time. It's like prayer is supposed to be important. I didn't have anyone discipling me growing up.

Speaker 4: 20:43

Um, like like we do in Antioch you know, and, uh, it says like, well, prayer must be important. It says so in the Bible. So you know how do I pray over these missionaries? And just trying to figure out, like what is effective prayer, what is not, and like if I want to be a prayer warrior someday am I going to?

Speaker 1: 21:10

why am I not starting to pray over these missionaries that come through and I collect their prayer cards, like baseball cards, you know, and and just say can I, can I start praying over them? What you know, you know? Wow, were you doing that? Like getting these like baseball missionary baseball cards and praying over these?

Speaker 4: 21:17

people. Yeah, I would get their prayer cards and I would pray over them on like sunday nights and stuff like that, and just flip through it and be like you know, if I, if I, you know, we're supposed to pray for people and this is, you know what I mean. Just trying to figure it out.

Speaker 1: 21:28

So that's so wholesome. I just love that. I'm like trading actual baseball cards. Yeah, and I was like I was, like you got a rookie uh, john and Jane there in Tanzania bless him, but also also dreaming about some lord.

Speaker 3: 21:45

Look at their stats, oh my goodness, 15 churches planted I'm like I want that barry bonds card.

Speaker 2: 21:52

It's worth some money. Oh gosh, that's amazing yeah that's super cool all right. So how did the Lord? Were there moments where the Lord kind of confirmed the avenue at which you would go?

Speaker 4: 22:11

Yeah.

Speaker 4: 22:11

So I didn't hear about Moody until, I want to say, it was February of my senior year and they showed up at my high school during a basketball camp and I just thought, oh, this looks like a cool school, cause I just, I was like I want to go to a place that I can get a Bible, a good, solid Bible background, but also a skill, so that even if I'm, if I'm working at McDonald's, I can still teach with authority and know that I'm not teaching incorrectly, you know.

Speaker 4: 22:41

And I liked what Moody had to offer. And so my dad had a business trip in the Chicagoland area so we went up there and visited and I toured and I applied and I was like, well, I mean really late, obviously, you know it's my senior year and and I was accepted into the school, so going through, you know, those first three years there, and then I had to do an internship, uh, for my degree, and I was trying to figure out, lord, how do I graduate debt free? Because that was a moody thing of graduating from university. Debt free, because you're going into ministry and their point was you're not going to make money to be able to pay this off, so do what you can.

Speaker 4: 23:23

So they had plans, money to be able to pay this off, so do what you can. So they had plans and stuff like that to bring costs down and all of that. And so when I was looking at my internship and I thought, well, I could do a local internship and I could work part time and then be able to pay for my senior year and still graduate debt free. And I remember my dad saying you know, you've always been interested in missions, why don't you look into some sort of a missions internship? And I was studying communications, specifically radio, and he said why don't you look into something like Transworld Radio or like one of these other radio mission agencies and do an internship with them? And I just said, well, dad, well, what about the finances for my senior year? And I have to raise support for that. Like, what about all of this stuff?

Speaker 4: 24:10

And he's like, well, I'm not sure how the Lord's going to work this out, but if it's supposed to happen, it's going to happen. And why not try it for a summer? And if you don't like it, it's okay, you can pivot. It. It's okay, you can pivot. If that's not where you're supposed to be, you haven't just signed on the dotted line for the next five years.

Speaker 1: 24:30

Do you know what I'm saying? It's pretty good advice, dad, yeah exactly when.

Speaker 4: 24:33

what I didn't realize at that time was that my stepping out in faith in that realm was stretching my parents' faith. While they're, they're also looking and saying we're not sure where their finances are going to come from for this, but they're not communicating that to me. But if you ask them today, they'd say, yeah, we weren't sure how all of this was going to happen. And to see the Lord, not just bring the finances for the summer, but then a scholarship became available for the school year, oh wow. And the Lord paid for everything for that senior year where I graduated in May and in August raised support again and was back out on the field by August.

Speaker 1: 25:17

What years was this? You were in Chicago.

Speaker 4: 25:20

I was in Chicago 94 through 98. Nice Chicago Bulls primetime. I was in chicago 94 through 98 nice chicago bowls prime time, for I was. I saw I'm from chicago.

Speaker 1: 25:30

So I was just thinking that, okay, yeah, I could.

Speaker 4: 25:34

Yeah, we'll have to talk offline yeah, yes, what I loved, I mean at moody. It was such a great because it's like, okay, you're going to school and you could stay in what we call the moody bubble. You always have the option to stay in your christian bubble, you know, uh. But yet right where moody was positioned, you had cabrini green, the projects behind it, you had the magnificent mile and it's like man, you have the opportunity to take what you're learning and to step out the door and apply and interact with the world around you. Oh, yeah, yeah, you know.

Speaker 1: 26:03

You were close to Carina Green. Yeah, man, a lot of people don't realize how rough that spot. I mean, I don't even really realize. I'm from the south of there, but my mom and dad wouldn't let me drive into Chicago until I was, like I think, 18, because I'd have to drive right through the south side.

Speaker 4: 26:23

Yeah, and Moody's right downtown chicago. So every year I just I didn't have a car, but I would just spend 100 bucks on a good pair of shoes and just walk around the city.

Speaker 1: 26:34

Yeah, that's super walkable city yeah, great city, walk, except in the winter that's a little tougher, kind of fast forward that year.

Speaker 2: 26:45

What happened at the end of next year, in my senior year? Was there any more confirmation on where you were, where you were wanting to go, or?

Speaker 4: 26:56

Well, I felt like during the internship. The Lord invited me to return back to Guam with Transworld Radio to see if there was a short-term opportunity there.

Speaker 2: 27:06

Oh cool. So during that time there was some clarity on going back to Guam.

Speaker 4: 27:10

Yeah, and even in that time, during that first internship, my flight over to Guam, their first time flying international, by myself and you know so I'm flying from Detroit to Narita, japan, 12 hour flight and we were off the ground maybe an hour or so and the pilot comes on and says hey, just want to get everyone's attention, just wake up, and I'm going to come back with some information in a couple minutes. And he comes back and he says so, we have an indicator light that tells us there's a fire in the back of the plane, but we can't get to the back of the plane to actually see if there's a fire or not. We think there's a, we think it's a faulty light, but we're not sure and we've got too much fuel to be able to just turn around and land. So we're going to be dumping fuel and then we're going to try to land in St Paul, minneapolis. But I just needed to brief everyone please pay attention, and we'll do emergency procedures.

Speaker 4: 28:08

Just shortly hereafter, and I'm sitting on the wing and I just see, all of a sudden, all this fuel just start just going out of the wings and I just at that moment I was like Lord, I'm going to die before I'm 20 years old. I'm going to die before I've done anything for you. I'm going to die before I'm 20 years old. I'm going to die before I've done anything for you. I haven't. I'm not even married yet. You know, it's like Lord, I'm going to die before my life begins.

Speaker 4: 28:29

And it was just like in that moment of, just as I looked around and I saw my seatmates and just panic in their eyes the silence on the plane is that kind of the reality of your mortality comes on and what, hey, whether this is a faulty light or not, we don't know Um, and in that moment I it was just something that I was just like you know what, lord, I can't control this, I don't like this, but I can't control this. So my life is yours, whether I live or die, my life is yours and you get glory out of this, okay. And there's just been times throughout my life that that there's been situations like that where it's like, okay, lord, whether I live or I die, this is in your hands and may you just be glorified, because I can't control these circumstances and I don't know how this is going to turn out. So that was a pivotal part of that internship and at the end of the internship, before I left, korean Air I'm going to say flight 801, crashed into one of the mountains on the backside of Guam and so that internship was capped with, you know, airline issues and just dealing with like different cultures and how they grieve and how they mourn, and just the island life and the Korean culture and all of that.

Speaker 4: 29:54

And just having to process through that of just like wow, we are, I really want to live for myself, but there is an eternity, like we're here one minute and we're gone the next and I want to you know, those two things really just impacted where I'm like what's the eternal value of this?

Speaker 4: 30:15

what's the eternal value of this? Because we can be here one minute, we can be gone the next. And what's important in this moment, in this day, and it's unfortunately it's made me like super serious at times, you know, but there's been other times where I'm like, hey, it's, it's, it yields big things for the kingdom.

Speaker 2: 30:36

That's beautiful, and this was at age what?

Speaker 4: 30:44

I was under 20.

Speaker 2: 30:45

Wow.

Speaker 4: 30:47

Yeah, 20, probably about 20.

Speaker 2: 30:49

Wow.

Speaker 1: 30:51

That's pretty cool. To have that level of like, fortitude and resolve at that age. It feels like a unique thing. I wasn't there at 18, 19, I was just.

Speaker 4: 31:06

I was still taking the shower heads off dorms at that age, being a punk yeah yeah, graduated from college, went back to Guam for two and a half years assisted with different things. I went out there as an on-air presenter I'm a terrible DJ, terrible on-air presenter but I had opportunities to learn some of the technical things as they were oh, we need to rewire the studio because we now have, you know, email addresses and stuff like that email, skype. All of that stuff was coming online back at that time. The transition from analog to digital, and so setting up the systems where, oh, I can set up a system that will actually turn on the transmitter at a certain time. I don't have to actually walk in at 4.30 in the morning and turn on the transmitter, let it warm up for half an hour and then have folks go live at 5. You know what I'm saying, and so just, oh, that could be a push of a button.

Speaker 4: 32:07

And it got to a point where, when my alarm would go off in the morning and I just had a radio playing, that I could hear on the radio like, okay, is the transmitter working correctly or is there a problem with the transmitter? I mean, it just got to a point where I could hear, like, what's happening with the trends? Am I going to get called in early before my shift or are we good to go for the day and stuff like that? Um, but you know each step of the way it's all about walking through opportunities. So when that time on Guam ended, we handed the local station over to be run by the locals, by the nationals, and there's still a shortwave station there on the island of Guam that reaches from Mongolia all the way down all of China, north and South Korea, all of those islands, all the way down to Australia.

Speaker 1: 32:54

So that station there still reaches all of that area for, for those of us that don't know um about trans old radio, give us a little overview of what they do like, what's on those broadcasts and how do they operate, and all that yeah, trans old radio is one of the best kept secrets in the us, um, because, and they broadcast more overseas, obviously in the christian christ Christian radio, so Christian preaching and teaching.

Speaker 4: 33:18

So for China they've got programs like Seminary on the Air. And there's new technology these days where the shortwave we don't just have analog shortwave, we have digital shortwave, so that while we're sending digital shortwave we actually can along one of the bands can be sending like packets, radio packets, almost like your old dial-up system, so that folks in china can download the bible, they can download commentaries, they can download things that they can't necessarily get. Um you can download through a radio frequency but through a radio frequency, through shortwave, digital shortwave so and they've got to have the right receiver.

Speaker 4: 33:57

But it's like you can. You can send information, not just teaching, but you can actually send resources and books and all of that type of stuff. So trans world radio is, at this point in time, the biggest christian broadcasting network throughout the world, has a bigger footprint than even like bbc voice of america when it comes to languages and coverage, and they work in different realms of shortwave, medium wave FM satellite and now on the digital realm of satellite. And Andrew is now working with a media team that they're animating Bible stories for disciple making teams on the ground, and so it's really media. Like how can media be used as a disciple making tool?

Speaker 1: 34:42

uh, for, for those that are on the ground, yeah, the missionaries on the ground I would think and this may be my naivety here, but like, if you're in a country that's got a, you know, basically opposed to Christian media, christian teaching, even books let's take, you know, romania back in the day, or communist China, whatever Can you is this a way where you can get kind of the gospel, get the Bible into people's hands, where it's basically not preventable by the government?

Speaker 1: 35:18

You, can we do that in China, because I mean, if you go to China and you're on Google and you're like download Bible, like that's pretty scary, right, Because you're probably being monitored and all that stuff.

Speaker 4: 35:29

You can't just download it, but you could receive it through the error, through radio. Right or receive it through the air, through radio Right, and when China then blocks it, you can roll your signal up or down the dial. So they're going to block a certain signal, but then you just move to the right or to the left until there's a clear frequency and send it that way. And there's also times where it's like you know the Middle East, they don't want us broadcasting in the Middle East. Well, you can, but everybody likes money.

Speaker 4: 36:02

I'm not saying that's what you know Transworld Radio does or anything like that but it's like, well, you could broadcast into the Middle East from other locations and you could use broadcast centers into the Middle East to broadcast into north africa or to different parts of europe, you know. So sometimes, um, if you're paying for airtime, as long as you're not broadcasting to their people from that station in country, you can use that station to broadcast into another location with the gospel that's's some cool Christian spy stuff right there.

Speaker 1: 36:37

That is super super cool.

Speaker 2: 36:40

You can pretty much broadcast anywhere in the world, right, wow?

Speaker 1: 36:45

That's really neat.

Speaker 2: 36:47

Yeah, it is. Is that what intrigued you about it, or was?

Speaker 1: 36:49

it, the skill sets you had, what got you there and what kept you there.

Speaker 4: 36:55

I think it was that my skill sets had a value yeah in the kingdom and where does this fit?

Speaker 4: 37:01

and then seeing it morph and change into a training and equipping component. So when I left guam, there wasn't a purpose for me on guam anymore, and so I was back in the us and thought, well, what am I going to do now? Well, I was back in the US and thought, well, what am I going to do now? Well, I was back I want to say three days and I got a call from the head office just saying, hey, would you be willing to go to Africa? We've made the transition from analog to digital in Africa, but the quality is going down very quickly and we need to provide some further training. Would you be willing to go for six months?

Speaker 4: 37:35

So I thought, sure, why not go to Africa for six months and just explore a new continent? And it's six months, you know, just give it a try and see what's happening. So basically, the plan was that I would be in South Africa two weeks and then out in another country two weeks. And then South Africa two weeks and then out in another country for two weeks. And so I did that for six months. But during that time the Lord said I want you to stay here in Africa. And I was like well, are there not enough missionaries in Africa? You know what about the 1040 window? What about all the unreached, unengaged people groups? He's like no, I want you to stay in Africa. And I was like okay. So that six months turned into 15 years.

Speaker 1: 38:13

Wow, Really when. Where were you at originally? I mean obviously the six months you were in south africa right, I stayed in south africa we had a regional office there in south africa, johannesburg yes yeah, yep so

Speaker 2: 38:27

joe berg, and were you a part of a local church there, or were you? Were you just working for trans world radio? Was that? Was that all you did there? Did you do other ministry stuff there?

Speaker 4: 38:40

Right, I was a part of a local church and I did other ministry things. So the church that I was a part of they would take some mission trips into Botswana and show the Jesus film and I went with them to do that because I'm like this is a different type of missions than what I do as my job to do that because I'm like this is a different type of missions than what I do as my job.

Speaker 4: 39:00

So it was really great to just experience different types of missions, because sometimes when you're in full-time ministry, it can just feel like, okay, that's my job and now I'm done, and it's like, no, this is supposed to be our lifestyle of who we are, as far as everywhere we go, we're supposed to be a blessing and just share the light, as, like, everywhere we go, we're just we're supposed to be a blessing, you know, and just share the light of jesus everywhere we go, and we don't just turn it off because it's five o'clock and I'm done now that's interesting.

Speaker 1: 39:27

You're like you're a missionary. You're like I'm gonna go on a mission trip but I loved it.

Speaker 4: 39:32

I mean, we were in Botswana because it was a different thing. You know Joburg when I moved to Joburg, joburg was it was the rape capital of the world. It was not the place that, you know, a single woman would necessarily just choose to be. But thankfully I was living in they called it a granny flat. It's a little granny house next to attached to somebody else's house. So I really got to understand the South African culture because the family living there was South African and it was really nice to to uh, have them to understand the culture and the the six months that I was there um, it was 2001. And so you know, it was interesting to be there in September and to see everything unfolding in September of 2001 and being in South Africa at that time.

Speaker 1: 40:29

I'm just thinking that the overlap in cities is interesting to me, like I was in Chicago and you're in Chicago in cities is interesting to me, like I was in chicago. When you're in chicago, andrew and I, my wife and I came through joe berg when you were in joe berg to go to um maputa, yeah to do mission stuff.

Speaker 4: 40:46

Yeah, and you were there somewhere I was there, you probably actually flew over the house that I live in, because we were literally one airport or sorry, one exit from the airport and directly in the flight path most of the time. Yeah, it's kind of cool Wow.

Speaker 4: 41:01

I realize when I talk to people and I say, oh, the Lord told me to do this, or I was there for six months and he said I want you to stay here longer it's like, okay, this is a conversation that was happening and it was more of an invitation. It wasn't necessarily a directive, if you will, Do you know what I'm saying? Invitation, it wasn't necessarily a directive, if you will, Do you know what I'm saying. And so it was an invitation from the Lord of like hey, explore this. You know I think this, you know this would be great. We'd love to see you stay a little bit longer here in South Africa.

Speaker 4: 41:26

And just taking the opportunity to walk through that door and the things that opened up and unlocked, like I wouldn't have seen the things and or experienced the things that I experienced and just see the goodness of the Lord in different ways and the hardships. And there was one time I was flying, I was coming back I forget where I was in West Africa but my flight back had been changed and instead of I was going from Senegal. It was supposed to be a direct flight from Senegal to Joburg and instead of I was going from Senegal. It was supposed to be a direct flight from Senegal to Joburg and instead of the direct flight, it stopped in Abidjan, in Cote d'Ivoire, which is a French-speaking country, and the plane was stopping for the night. And so I remember I was on the flight and I realized what's going on and I was trying to ask the flight attendant and she's like, oh no, they'll sort it out. And so, as I exited the plane, you exit the plane and you're outside and you so you're actually walking on the tarmac to into the airport, and I see the tunnel that I'm going to be walking into and I'm praying to the Lord and I'm like Lord, I'm not supposed to be in this country. I have no way to contact anyone, nobody knows that I'm here and I don't have a visa. I don't speak French. These airports close late at night and they push everybody out onto the street. Like Lord, what am I going to do? What is going on? Like help me figure this out before I walk through those double doors, because when I walk through those double doors, I'm now in Cote d'Ivoire and we've got to figure something out.

Speaker 4: 42:56

And so, as I'm walking down this tunnel, this person, this guy, comes out from the side, out of a door that I had didn't even realize was there, and he's got like some sort of uniform on. It's not a military uniform, but you could tell like, okay, this is he. He, he demands respect. Do you know what I'm saying? And I just looked at him and I I forget what I said, but like I held up my passport and he just kind of said come with me. And I just remember thinking, okay, I'm going to follow this person. I have no idea where we're going.

Speaker 4: 43:31

We went back into this door, like into the, into the wall. That was like a hidden door. We went back into this door like into the wall, that was like a hidden door and we ended up going back throughout the whole backside of this airport and he collected my bags and walked me back through customs and escorted me all the way up to the next flight back to Joburg and escorted me through the whole thing and didn't say I didn't say a word to him. He didn't say a word to me and usually I'll chat to Africans and just chat. It's just culturally, it's what you do. Do you know what I'm saying?

Speaker 4: 44:01

He didn't ask for any money, he didn't ask for any tips and I just felt like I needed to be quiet so I didn't say anything. I just provided the papers when asked at different times or pointed to my luggage. And he escorted me all the way up to the top and I still remember, like there's usually a couple of folks at the airport that are just checking making sure you're at the right gate, and you walked me all the way up there and just walked me right past these guys into that area. And I just look back at that. I'm just like Lord I don't know if this was an airport employee or an angel. Just like lord, I. I don't know if this was an airport employee or an angel, but he that somebody just, you know, out of the middle of nowhere, out of this whole plane. You brought someone out to escort me one person all the way through stuff, uh, in ways that just doesn't normally happen that's just amazing to see how the lord does that stuff?

Speaker 2: 44:56

you know, oh, when did you leave south africa?

Speaker 4: 45:02

we left december of 2015 okay.

Speaker 2: 45:06

So in hindsight, why do you think god said holly, I want you to stay here for 15 years?

Speaker 4: 45:19

I actually, during that time I met my husband in West Africa and he was with crew and Joe in Florida, so that's its own little side rabbit trail. He flew 10,000 miles for a second date four months later with a ring in his pocket four months later four months after we met, yep, so I mean, that's a thing.

Speaker 4: 45:44

So I met my husband and during that time, with all of that stuff, all the illnesses, I remember being so angry at the Lord because it reached a point where I could no longer work. And I was so angry at the Lord and was like lord, I have given you everything and you have taken my mind and you've taken my physical health. So the bipolar and the chronic fatigue, I'm like what else is there for you? I mean and I'm talking angry like swearing and stuff like that- you know what I'm saying, just like Lord, what the hell's going on Like?

Speaker 4: 46:38

what is this? This is not what I signed up for. Okay, I've given you my life. Why are you not protecting me? Why did I get a virus and been in West Africa? Why do I still have this, where I used to be able to go to the gym and do a 5k and now I can barely walk 10 minutes without being exhausted for 48 hours. You know what has happened to my mind that my husband marries me and I've turned into the antichrist and I'm on this bipolar mood swing stuff going on. What is happening with all of this stuff? And so during that time, you know the Lord, he stripped away all of the false identity that I had of who he was and who I am, and he really revealed who he was to me in that moment, in that time, To me in that moment, in that time.

Speaker 4: 47:39

He also started to rewrite my theology and so some of the things. When I went to the field, originally out of Moody, I wasn't spirit filled. I was more on the cessationist side of things than I am today. Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah, and the Lord was like I'm going to rewrite this, and part of that time in Africa was like man, lord, I'm seeing, I'm reading miracles here in the Bible and I'm seeing them, but I want to see them in my everyday life. Like I know, these are for today.

Speaker 4: 48:10

You aren't just the God of yesterday. No, hebrews says, you're the jesus christ, the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. So why am I believing that the, that the things of the spirit that you say you've given are just for yesterday? And so the lord rewriting that, my theology in that time too, rewriting, um, you know theology on gifts of the spirit, theology and and suffering. You know all of that stuff. And just taking me back to, okay, lord, what are you saying and who of who you are? Or am I believing that you are who someone else has said you are? Did that make sense?

Speaker 1: 48:52

Yeah, yeah, makes good sense. So during that time, like all of that was happening there in africa, was that over the 15 years or is that like an acute, several years within the 15?

Speaker 4: 49:07

I would say that would be. I'd started to within the first five years, starting to connect with folks and actually begin to be discipled by someone. So it's different to have a one-on-one or a small group discipleship versus like, I've learned the theology and I know the mechanics. Do you know what I'm saying. It's like, yeah, did I read my Bible, did I pray, did I do? Yes, but who? But that accountability, discipleship of running hand in hand with people, you know, didn't happen until I first hit.

Speaker 4: 49:47

Africa and then, shortly after, like five years in, I met Andrew and during that time, I ended up getting sick and all of these types of things. So it was something that happened over a longer period of time I would say, probably the last 10 years that we were there. So, andrew and I realized that we I was praying for Andrew. This was in January of 2013. I was praying for Andrew. He was in meetings and I was in the garage and I was just concerned about the meetings and we were just having a difficult time there. And as I was praying for him, I was fixing one of the chairs that was currently at our house and I heard this audible voice that said your time in Africa has come to an end. Wow.

Speaker 4: 50:28

And it freaked me out because I'm in Joburg, so just to paint the picture here is that we have fencing around the house palisade, electric fencing, we have gates on the doors, gates in the windows, alarm systems and I'm like I'm supposed to be alone in this garage and I'm hearing this male voice to say your time in Africa has come to an end. So I turn around, I'm freaking out. I had my keys and I'm ready to fight. I've got my fists up, but yet I feel this strange piece of like. Okay, if it's time to leave, it's actually time to leave. And what I didn't realize is that at the same time as I was praying for Andrew in the meeting, he realized that he's like there's nothing more for me to do here in Africa.

Speaker 4: 51:09

At the same time, we didn't talk about it for a little while, Cause at that time I was still bipolar and I was like I heard a voice, you know what I mean, I'm just like, what am I supposed to do with this?

Speaker 4: 51:18

But talking to my mentor, and she's like, well, did you have peace? I said, yeah, I had peace, like we're supposed to leave, you know. And Africa was home, um, and as Andrew and I started talking about it and praying about it, and when we realized it was at the exact the exact, exact same time and day that we had heard that, hey, and we felt released, like it's time for us to leave, and we started to pray and ask the Lord well then, when and where do you want us to go? And we felt like the Lord was saying well, I don't want you to leave.

Speaker 4: 51:49

To the end of your term, which was three years later, which is why the end of 2015, but in that year of 2015, the lord just did so much in my life that, uh, just you know, getting dunked in the holy spirit and and the healings of the bipolar just started to happen. And then the everything just started. The snowball that had been building kind of just was pushed off the edge of the mountain and just started rolling down the hill. And it was just incredible to the point where we're like we were supposed to be here through 2015. There's no doubt in our mind that we were supposed to be in south africa for that, for what he was doing in my life and our life, in our marriage. But we also knew to stay in Africa was going to be a sin, and so we're like, okay, coming back here we go.

Speaker 1: 52:41

I've got to ask how long did you struggle with the bipolar and what did coming out of that like? What did the healing of that look like and how did it precipitate?

Speaker 4: 52:54

So I was diagnosed with bipolar in 2008 and in I want to say January or February of 2019, the psychiatrist I was seeing, um, said you know, there is no longer a clinical reason that you need to see me anymore. I'm removing the bipolar diagnosis from your record, so 11 years. So in 2015, I talked with Andrew and I had gone to an inner healing weekend and just dealing with stuff I've been tricked into going by a friend of mine and actually the day that I was supposed to go, I got really sick and my friend was like you got to go, you got to go and I just got so sick and I was like I can't come, I'll come tomorrow. And she's like you got to come. And I was like I can't even walk across the room, I'm so dizzy and stuff like that. And she's like Mark and I will pick you up and we'll bring you and we get to the area where we're having this conference and I get out of the car and I feel perfectly fine from there on out and she's like yep, yep, yep, here's what's happening. You know what I'm saying.

Speaker 4: 54:02

And so I came home from that weekend and I told Andrew and I said I think the Lord has healed the bipolar, but I'm terrified because I don't. I'm not just going to step off the meds and I'm only going to do this at a pace that you're comfortable with. And so and he, because I was like we're, we're married, we're one flesh. So I feel like the Lord is healed, but I want you to be convinced of this.

Speaker 4: 54:33

And so we agreed because we knew that we were moving across to the other side of the world, which a transcontinental move like that is as stressful as losing a spouse as going through a divorce, stress level wise. And so Andrew's like, well, let's just get through this and see what the Lord does through this and and and look for confirmation. And while we're, we know that you're going to have to change psychiatrists because you got one in South Africa but you don't have one in America. Let's be praying for one that's willing to hear you and believe that God heals and it's willing to potentially walk through this with us.

Speaker 4: 55:17

And so that transition and that move to the States was so peaceful, so restful I had so little anxiety. It was evident not just to Andrew and I but to other colleagues who had made the similar move and who had known me before. And we're like how is this not stressing you out? Are you not anxious about this? And it wasn't that I was calm and peaceful. It wasn't a medicated calm and peaceful, it was a tangible spirit, calm and peaceful. Do you know what I'm saying?

Speaker 2: 55:49

Yeah.

Speaker 4: 55:49

And then when we came back to the US, we met with a psychiatrist that I had seen before. Trans World Radio would keep folks on retainer because some of the areas and the locations that we were at were hardship locations or dealing with different hard things, you know, trauma and stuff. And so we met with her and she just said, hey, you know, I could take you on as a private patient and we had a history together. So I was like, oh sure, that'd be great and we shared our plan. We had our plan, which was we need to raise support for about 10 months to live in the US. We'll somehow find a house and then we'll start stepping off the meds, so creating kind of the least stressful environment. Well, that's our plans.

Speaker 4: 56:37

And the Lord redirected the plans. We're raising support and I was on a meeting with a psychiatrist and she just she finally said I think we were it was um of 2016 and she's like I can visibly see that you don't need the level of all of these meds. Can I start taking you off? Can we start this process now? So she's saying I can see this, can we start this now? And I was like, well, sure, let's, let's see how goes, and so just working with her and taking a step down process, stepping off the medications, the only side effects I only had side effects, which was a headache, no bipolar, no depression, no anxiety flare-ups none of that whatsoever were evident at all through the process and we felt like it was important for us to walk with a psychiatrist through that process.

Speaker 4: 57:36

Because it was a psychiatrist that had declared it to have a psychiatrist remove it. Do you know what I'm saying?

Speaker 1: 57:43

Yeah, I think it's wisdom.

Speaker 2: 57:51

I think it's so beautiful that you told. Andrew that you're going to walk through this at what he's comfortable at. I feel like it's so easy to hear the Lord, or feel like you're hearing from the Lord and say, well, this is what happened and expect your spouse to be on board and get offended or mad if they're not on board. I think that's so wise.

Speaker 4: 58:11

Well, and I mean, I was not an easy person to live with. So I'm asking you, know someone who has stuck with me through thick and thin to say I think God is healed? Are we willing to risk going off the meds? That is keeping the insanity at bay. And yeah, it was just a growth. It was a growth process for both of us. I want to say that both of us, like we knew that God heals, but we had put parameters on it. We had started to put you know, oh well, god can heal in this way but not in this way. Or God can heal this but not this, where I feel like through the process, he was just like, yeah, no, this is what I'm going to do.

Speaker 1: 59:03

What is your take on mental illness? Take on mental illness. I've had thoughts over the years of like and I've talked to professionals about it. Is there, is it purely biochemical? Is there spiritual? Is it always a cocktail of both? I mean as somebody who's lived it, been healed, walked through it. How do you look at it now?

Speaker 4: 59:33

My personal opinion is that I feel that there is a greater degree of a spiritual dynamic than we give credit for, even if there's. I know that there can be chemical imbalance, like I know that there can be chemical imbalance, like I know there's dynamics. But there's times when I'm like it's almost a which came first, the chicken or the egg you know what I'm saying which one is influencing the other. I wonder for myself if I had had someone walk me through the spiritual side of things first, as opposed to going straight to the psychiatrist who gave me the medications, would there have been a healing earlier rather than later? And I don't know, and I know it's highly debatable either way, because there's times where it's like this is a clear chemical imbalance, that something's needed. Do you know what I'm saying?

Speaker 4: 1:00:42

and there's other times that there's like I know.

Speaker 1: 1:00:47

For me, at times it felt like there's a chemical imbalance and there's also a monkey on my back, almost like a both, and at times the times that people that I know and love, that have wrestled with mental health issues, it always feels like there's a mix and that's just again am I not super non-professional, but just interacting with it as a person who loves people like, yeah, that's what it feels like, like there's definitely just kind of a purely stuff going on with the chemistry, but then there's also some baggage.

Speaker 4: 1:01:24

Yeah, I would agree with that. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:01:28

I've read a book I can't remember what it was called, but it was so insightful because they were talking about they were spirit-filled believers who were doctors in psychology and stuff talking about how a lot of times a healing process has to has to start with medication so that they can calm the body down, so that they can then focus on what actually happened or like what, what the trauma, even though the trauma is the source or there's something more spiritually, um, more spiritually susceptible there. They have to start with a physical way of calming your body down so that your spirit can be kind of in a place to receive from the Lord and then from there take the medication off again, which I found really fascinating. And of course, it's not always like that, right, sometimes it's a little bit the inverse of that, but I just find it fascinating how that all works and what the Lord kind of does in moments like that. Mm-hmm.

Speaker 4: 1:02:45

I think, at the end of the day, for me, what I walk away with is well, I think, at the end of the day for me. What. I walk away with is well, a psychiatrist had told me once like hey, you know you're in a deep muddy pit and the medications are going to help you get to the top, and then we can look at are they needed, are they not needed, and what's really going on. Do you know what?

Speaker 4: 1:03:06

I'm saying.

Speaker 4: 1:03:08

So exactly what you're saying along those lines, and I think for me, at the end of the day, where I land with it all is that, whether it's a spiritual component, whether it's a chemical imbalance, dynamic combination of both, the lord is supreme over all and he can heal all.

Speaker 4: 1:03:31

Yeah, you know, and I think that's where I always want to make sure I land, because I know my story is not always the same as other folks' stories and there's a wrestling, and there was a time that I had to learn, I had to figure out, like, okay, so how do I live? Now I've become so accustomed to living under medication oh, is this emotional response appropriate or inappropriate? Or, and almost had to just kind of relearn some things, but also had to be like okay, well then, how do I need to now train my mind and take my mind captive? How do I now need to walk in the vein that I don't step into the pitfalls that I know will take me down into areas of depression or anxiety? What do I need to do? What are the things I need to do and what are the things I need to rely on the Lord for?

Speaker 1: 1:04:24

And maybe how you need to think.

Speaker 4: 1:04:26

How you need to think and what do I need to think about? What do I need to focus on? I realized that, man, I love listening to music, Listen to it my whole life. It's a radio component, Love listening to it. And I realized I was like man, there's some stuff I can listen to that I am actually opening doors and I can feel the spirit behind some of the music and I'm like I need to just actually stop listening to this because I have now, I have somehow opened something and I'm now meditating on this, instead of what the word of God says.

Speaker 1: 1:05:01

Yeah, I think that's smart.

Speaker 1: 1:05:12

I mean, as somebody who's dealt with anxiety I I had to I learned something about myself and that I wasn't.

Speaker 1: 1:05:14

I didn't really know how to think, I wasn't an active participant in my own thoughts which sounds weird to say but it's like you get a thought come in your head and then you just kick it around and like I'm not supposed to be thinking about this, that wasn't even from the Lord. But it's like you get a thought come in your head and then you just kick it around and like I'm not supposed to be thinking about this. That wasn't even from the lord, that wasn't from me, that might have been from the enemy, or maybe it's from my flesh, but I need to subject it to christ. I didn't know how to do that and so I'd get a random thought uh, that was fearful or something like that, and it could just wreck my day, wreck my week, because I didn't know how to think and and and I was like I. The term I use now is like you gotta have a bouncer at the door exactly and thoughts come in and you have to decide like are you getting into this club?

Speaker 1: 1:06:02

are you excluded?

Speaker 4: 1:06:04

wow, yeah, and I mean, it's so true, and even today I just even you know, the lord has healed the bipolar and stuff but even now it's like there's times that I have to be extra vigilant on just. Am I kicking those thoughts out of my brain or am I dwelling on them? You know, and it seems it just it does feel like recently there's been an uptick of of more, just like intrusive thoughts that are not of the Lord, you know, and so that's something like exploring now of just like, okay, you know, what am I focusing on? Or is there just an uptick Like what are we? What's going on? You know, but it is that vigilance, that standing firm, that is talked about in Ephesians 6. You know, we put on the armor of God so that we can stand firm and to pray into the Spirit in all things.

Speaker 2: 1:06:58

I love these rabbit trails. My grandfather always said the longest rabbit trail leads to the juiciest carrot.

Speaker 4: 1:07:06

That's true.

Speaker 1: 1:07:08

When you started talking about the the hard years in africa.

Speaker 1: 1:07:15

you prefaced it by talking about or by mentioning like the lord was shown stripping away false identities and kind of revealing who he was and who you were. It kind of feels like one of those kind of like the Lord passing by Moses kind of. In my mind I think of things visually like that's a moment of like all right, I can pass by you, but not fully, I'll just you'll get to see the back of me, but you can't handle it. Like it feels like a holy thing, like a stripping away, it's hard, it's visceral or something. And this is just my thoughts of your brief explanation, right, so I could be totally wrong here. But my question is like what, what did you discover about the Lord lord? Who did he reveal himself to be to you in that really hard time?

Speaker 4: 1:08:18

and I think, before I answer that what I want to make sure is very clear to people is that in that hard time and I say the Lord was stripping these things away and want to make sure that there's clarity as to who he is in all of this is that, is that it just it goes to show that the Lord redeems the years that the locusts have eaten, have eaten. He is the redeemer because he, in that stripping away, do I think that he brought those things to, to do the stripping away? No, but I think it was. It was you, he.

Speaker 1: 1:09:17

They were the beneficial byproduct, if you will I've, I've said sometimes like he will, he can use a situation that he didn't create he.

Speaker 4: 1:09:28

I believe and that's one thing that I want to make sure people are understanding is that he didn't. I don't believe that the Lord caused the bipolar for the sake of understanding the identity components.

Speaker 1: 1:09:37

Okay. So what I walked?

Speaker 4: 1:09:39

away with was a better understanding of who he is and who I am and my relationship with him. And it is that he is. He is good and he is loving and he is compassionate and he is kind and he he takes vengeance, he is merciful and he is just and he is holy and that is and. But yet he isn't. There isn't evil in him to do me harm, to make me stronger, to build me into something that Does that make sense? When I'm trying to get, I don't have the right words, but it's like it can be so subtle that we feel like I'm going through this so that these things are stripped away. It's like these things were stripped away.

Speaker 4: 1:10:26

I was going through this and the opportunity of wrestling with the Lord is that I had the opportunity for these things to be taken away and I had the opportunity to actually say, oh, this is actually a false identity in myself. This is actually a false belief on God that he could heal other things but he can't heal mental illness. That was a belief I had and I feel like what he did is kind of like set things right where it's like. You know, this isn't that, it isn't. God can do X, y and Z, but or except it is, he is the God that heals.

Speaker 4: 1:11:03

I don't always understand things, and when I don't understand them, I will keep asking and pestering him about it, but it's also I am okay with not getting the answer in the moment, in the time that I want the answer, because I know that he is good and that he has my best interest at heart. I think in today's realm, if we're not careful, we unintentionally put on glasses that we view the Lord in To explain it to ourselves of why is something happening, as opposed to taking it to him and saying, lord, I don't understand this, I'm not happy with this, I don't understand this, I'm not happy with this, I don't like this, but I still know that you're good and I still know that you're going to. You are the God who redeems. So I don't know how, when this has happened, but I'm going to keep contending for this redemption in some way, somehow.

Speaker 2: 1:12:07

People will change their theology to match their pain, and I think that's so true. If you believe the lie that God is not constant, then you will 100% try to convince yourself that he's not good because you're in pain, and I think what's important is that he invites you into the places that are hard, that we can't control, and we don't have to participate in that. But if we engage in that invitation, then there's a promise and a healing that takes place, whether it's in the way we want it to be or perceive it to be, or whether it's in the way that we need and we don't know it right I think another trap you can go to is like in those moments like the book of Job is very informative about this.

Speaker 1: 1:13:15

It's hard book to read and understand, but one thing that's clear is you can spin yourself in circles wondering why you can have 30 chapters of bad ideas about why these things are happening and that can be part of suffering and it's just not a very fruitful path to go down. It's just not but the relationship and keeping your eyes on him and remembering that he's holy and sovereign and you know that's ultimately the best thing to do.

Speaker 4: 1:13:56

And to not set aside our own human emotions, because that can be the easy thing is like I just need to. Oh, this is painful, I need to. The Lord is good, he's going to figure this out and I shouldn't feel terrible about this or be upset about this. And it's like no, actually the Lord created us with these emotions. It is the chance to be like David, to take it to him, to talk to him about it, express them with him, because he also is a God of emotions and sometimes we want to put that. You know it's that. Hey, just because I'm feeling a certain way doesn't mean that that's wrong. But what am I doing with it in the moment? Am I taking it to him or am I? Am I allowing it to fester and get rotten within me?

Speaker 4: 1:14:41

oh, that's such a good because I think, feel like sometimes we, we can say no, I shouldn't. I shouldn't feel this way, I shouldn't have this level of disappointment and discouragement because I don't know, I don't understand why and I don't see the answer as to how it's all going to work out. But yet, in that, you know, reminding us, reminding ourselves of who the Lord is, but acknowledging our own humanness in the process.

Speaker 1: 1:15:13

That's so good. You ever think about how Jesus wept for Lazarus before he healed him? Yeah. What's that all about? Yeah. I think, I don't know, I don't know. I don't fully understand that.

Speaker 4: 1:15:35

I feel like sometimes I try to control my emotions as a way of propping up faith, but that doesn't look like what Jesus did in that moment and actually, if you read Luke 15, there's three stories in Luke 15 of lost things and in at least one of them it talks about I remember that I had misread it for years, thinking that it was the angels rejoicing in the presence of the Lord because of a sinner who has come to faith. And it was, and it's actually. If you read it, it's actually the Lord rejoicing in the presence of the angels of the heavenly realm of the sinner coming to faith. And I'm like it is. This is the Lord rejoicing over this. He is excited. He isn't just a somber someone sitting there with no emotion and to me it's just like, okay, wow, this is.

Speaker 4: 1:16:40

I need to utilize my emotions correctly, but feeling bad about things is not, isn't wrong. And I think a lot of times, like you said, chris, like we can. We can hone, keep our emotions in to prop up our faith or to put on a front, and sometimes we got to put on a front to get through the day. Do you know what I'm saying? But are we still taking it to the Lord? Are we talking to him about it? Are we saying, hey, I've got this component here? We can't, if we compartmentalize that part of our lives, we're compartmentalizing part of who god has created us to be yeah and there's wholeness and there's health in that and just to say, okay, lord, you are sovereign over me in all areas.

Speaker 2: 1:17:29

I mean, I feel like the example of Jesus modeling that also is in the Garden of Gethsemane, when he tells God straight up I don't want to do this, yeah, and what that communicates to me is that the Savior of the world does not have that on his mind, he doesn't have me on his mind because he's concerned about what it's going to cost. And then he brings himself back and says but not my will, but your will. You know, and it's like, and it's like even Jesus himself modeled invitation from the Father against his will, because his will was more important. He was the constant one in that moment. Not even he was constant in that moment.

Speaker 1: 1:18:29

Yeah, thank you for sharing those thoughts. I know that's not like maybe the most fun thing to go back to or whatever, but I think there's a lot of value, there's a lot of gold in there in your experience with him and you went through something both very challenging but very real and raw. But also other people can really glean from that I mean, I'm gleaning from it right now but especially people with similar circumstances, similar struggles and stuff. I think it's very awesome that you're open and I know you shared it from stage on Sundays and stuff too. So just appreciate your vulnerability and humility to just be just kind of bear all and tell all.

Speaker 4: 1:19:15

It's one of those things that I want all people to be healed. And if they're dealing with any mental stuff cause it is pure hell, Do you know what I'm saying? And if, if vulnerability helps people see the Lord in a different way or have courage, or something like that, it's like I have nothing left to lose because, it's been lost already.

Speaker 2: 1:19:39

Holly Haas, thank you so much for being on here. It's a huge honor privilege hearing your story, Very humbling. I really appreciate you. This is the Uncommon Path. See you next time. And that's it. And now it's time for us to all grab a beer.

Speaker 1: 1:20:05

Brian, good job taking the plane off and landing. Thank you.